Class Differentiation: The Heart of Medieval RP

I think that a slow re-direction to the Medieval themes of the olden' times would be an excellent addition to our OOC classes. As much as it might seem like it is a tiny thing that doesn't seem to have much effect, the very fact that a class exists on class structure really does help when it comes to people taking a look at what is valued in an RP community.

I totally understand that a few players could find this troubling for what direction they are trying to take : Hear me out in my attempt of comfort when I say that having opposition to your character's stubborn, freedom loving nature is only good in the ways that it can help strengthen your character's resolve, help provide richer stories and RP immersion for you as a player, and assist in the deepness of decision making your character might make. The world will fight against you on certain aspects, causing you to fight back - This is one of the major themes we all love in a story, and is not something to fear in your RP.

What we must remember is that, as much as we want to have some freedom for our characters to be who they want to be, even in a fantasy setting this is not always the case. There are rules and expectations of every society, fictional or nonfictional, that ultimately affect the properties that we love and find admirable in the first place about these environments. The very concept and idea of medieval was ultimately produced due to the idea of class structure; To ignore class structure would not mean you are playing in a medieval setting, but rather a tribal or anarchic one. In order to enjoy the full range of features every setting has, we have to respect and abide to the very nature that restricts it into these positive traits in general, even if that means understanding a class system does exist, rightfully so, in a city or township.

Long explanation over, yes. OOC classes for this would be incredible. Even a short guide would be incredible. This is not something we can enforce, but it is something we can ENCOURAGE.

I'll play devil's advocate here for the sake of discussion, though I do agree with much that's been said. I like a medieval framework that includes class, gender, and racial distinctions.

We are a medieval sim but we are also a fantasy sim and that detracts from realism, as fantasy is the opposite of reality. I'll try to address each of the distinctions with my opinions as best I can, but keep in mind it's the morning for me and my brain isn't quite switched on fully.  I may also be restating what's already been said, but that's the way I work. XD

Gender distinctions. This is the most difficult of the distinctions to enforce not just in a fantasy setting but in SL's setting in general, where many people come to get away from these very same gender distinctions.

Also, while women are physically weaker than men in general, because we have an equal and fair trait-rank system, female characters can equal male characters in every respect.  Just as well, we have female characters who are meant to, in more than martial ways, be as ferocious as any man, male fighter, warrior, knight, etc.  This contradicts, on paper, the idea that men and women are unequal.  Realistically, I always see it as men and women are equal and are stronger than the other in different ways, but that sort of subjective thinking is difficult to put down on paper.

Another difficultly in enforcing this distinction has very much to do with our respect to those players and their wishes; many players wish for their character to be perceived in the ways that they portray them. I think everyone tries to respect these wishes as best they can, bending their characters without breaking them, but this point has very much to do with the broad variety of players/characters that we get and what they want to get out of their RP.

Social distinctions. This is somewhat easier but in general never happens. Why? Because all characters are the main character in their own stories. We could make Den Mother queen of all the world ICly, but players will still have their characters treat her like social equals. Why? Because that's how almost all stories work; it's a simple matter of fact that 90% of main characters in all stories are equal to or greater than the difficulties that they face. G.R.R.M. likes to step away from that and that's why people consider his work interesting, but he also employs many main P.O.V. characters in his books. Players only have one or two, maybe. So if Den Mother is an obstacle, the player characters are equal to her because that's how they write their stories. It takes a very rare kind of player to play a main character, not an NPC, who is willing to have their character view other characters as their betters.

Secondly, social class distinction only works when the upper class has power; in medieval times, a knight or samurai could kill any peasant without needing to provide explanation. A nobleman or noblewoman could have peasant flogged if they were so inclined. Sheriffs and enforcers of justice could make an arrest or beat the shit out of someone without needing to explain themselves either. Unfortunately, due to the nature of being a semi consent-based sim, this kind of power cannot be given to anyone, really. Even garou pack alphas, warden keep harbingers, lord or ladies of the village are subject to this. They have to get consent and they generally will not find players who are willing to get licked for no reason, which is what prompts this feel.

Lastly, racial distinctions are the easiest and generally most common. I don't think I need to go into why, but it just works because it's just a matter of IC hate. It doesn't need power and nothing really works against it.

Realism vs. Fantasy is always a tenuous balance. In order to achieve the things you guys want, it's more than just OOC classes -- it'd have to be an altering and stating of lore and a trend that needs to be enforced through clear indicators. The generic fantasy RP setting doesn't include these concepts, so it'd have to be declared that it is different. As far whether we'll actually include this in our lore, I can't say. We'll take it under advisement?

To summarize, while class differentiation may be the heart of medieval RP, we are a medieval fantasy roleplay sim.

Also, we are working on a few social status trait skills.

I think that's more along the lines of consent and force.  Players don't want to IM someone and say, "Hey, let's roll off, and if you lose, you have to do whatever I tell you."  Being informed that you have to follow someone's commands is different than understanding the possible social consequences of not respecting the wishes of someone above you.

Edit:


What's more, having skills and traits and abilities that allow a player with high social standing to just DO that can create some pretty uncomfortable roleplay situations, and perhaps awkward situations for players who might be a bit timid, or sensitive, or nervous.  It takes some serious stones to do something like that at times, haha.  Beyond even that, the roll would still depend on the other player's feelings about it.  If they view themselves as the main character, then they will still actively refuse to view someone like Denny or Amdira or whoever else as their 'betters' because they view themselves as being on equal standing.

Edit 2:


In the wayback times, (and whether we are fantasy or not) nobles actually owned the guards.  There really was no central government, there was no police force, there were no state cops.  The nobility had private security forces, and their word was law.  Now, in order to stay in power and not experience some form of uprising, the nobles couldn't be complete dickheads, but they most often toed the line.  The Wardens, on Valesk, would be a legitimate authoritative body, but their funds would likely be lacking unless backed by some form of noble.  They do not have any sort of taxpayer dollars coming in to support new gear and equipment.  Guards, on the other hand, certainly would.  They are paid for by nobles, outfitted by nobles, given housing by nobles, and their families are funded by those nobles.  You see where I'm going with this, I'm sure.  In most medieval roleplay situations, there is some invisible source of income for businesses and guilds that just keeps them afloat regardless of current economic status or presence of benefactors.  Because of that, social status is notoriously hard to establish, and wealth is absolutely meaningless.  Social Standing is a great step in the right direction, but I agree with Denny--it ought to be expanded upon and used more realistically within the context of Valesk, or we lose out on not only a lot of good roleplay, but common medieval themes.  With that, we lose a lot of immersion as well.

Because BigPecs McGillicutty thinks he is only the hottest of shit. If he loses that social standing roll-off, he's going to snort and walk away. If he wins the roll-off, well... He probably snorts and walks away. There's no magical compulsion here, there's no actual reason to do anything that the person with higher SS is telling you to do. It's difficult to look at a moral situation (taxing the poor, for example) and decide the outcome with a roll. Say Denny was doing just that--Proposing higher taxation of the poor, and Valkyrie was pretty opposed to that for her own moral reasons. In the ensuing debate, are we to take this Social Standing roll as the absolute outcome of the roleplay without taking into account the content of the debate? What if Denny's reasoning is poor? What if Valkyrie would be extremely opposed to such a thing? Would a simple bonus on the roll really account for that? Where do we draw that line?

Murky-ass territory. How many times have you been out-debated and walked away saying, "I lost that debate, and I was wrong?" Compare to the number of times you've thought, "Ugh, I'm right, I just don't know how to make them see it my way!" That's what we're wading into here. It's not "My fireball was bigger so I'm better," it's "These are my ideas, those are yours, I think mine are better." You can judge magic objectively. Social topics, not so much. Often, simple roll-offs aren't what the doctor ordered. Unlike D&D, where a diplomacy check can alter an NPC's viewpoint without many consequences later on the part of that shallow character's development... Characters in Valesk are much deeper, and making decisions that do not make sense for the character based on the result of a roll seems... Odd.

I agree with your sentiment of "I don't think this will ever be solved," but I think more stress on the existence of social classes in roleplay and a few OOC classes on it can help alleviate the issue. It won't take care of the problem, that's for sure, but it can help.

Edit:  Sorry, so many edits today.  Anyway, a pretty ez example would be an Orc that doesn't understand human hierarchy.  Denny could roll a 200 on Social Standing against Grothmar's roll of 1.  That probably wouldn't change anything, because he'd have no reason to listen to Puny-Woman-In-Red-Dress.  Are dumb orcs, then, immune to Social Standing?  Or is this orc suddenly gifted with understanding of Human Hierarchy?  You can lack understanding of swordplay all you want, it doesn't stop you from being run through with a blade.  You might have never heard of magic before, but damnit, that fireball hurt!  You've never been in a human settlement before...  So you still don't care about the loud lady in the shiny dress.

Right, you can treat it as a useless trait. And that's exactly what's happening right now, and why this post is here. That's what people do. Store owners, warriors, guards, players of all types, staff or not... They ignore it. And for any player that invested a lot into SS, that feels shitty.


And what makes them higher? Money? Money is no object in Valesk. Nobody starves unless they want to. Bring able to rent a home has nothing to do with character wealth, nor do clothes. We can't reasonably tell people to dress for the wealth we can't really control.

I'd like to suggest fixes, but I can't. Restricting the money system would just bog things down. Adding, like, npc guards for nobles does the same thing.

So, that's all I've got for the moment, unfortunately. :[ Wish I wasn't just a critic.

As a SW, I agree with much of what Abaddon says, and that part of why I'm here is to present people who do respond realistically to social pressures. People who do realize that Social Standing 10 means someone can ruin your life with a few words. It means that they have people on call who will hurt you for money. That they can not only have you killed, they can have you disappeared. People seem to respect when they are wounded, but because there's no system where you have lasting social damage done to you, they just sorta... do what they want.

There's some reasonable points all around here.

Notably, I'm going to agree with Cail's last post here. The issue is the RP in between. While the stat may represent your place in society, income, connections, etc...it's not there to replace roleplay. Your character may very well have high social standing simply representing their noble birth and lingering connections prior to arriving in Valesk. While a character like that may be able to bribe someone into enforcing 'respect' for them, it's very likely that most playing from the 'Main Character' perspective won't address everyone with high social standing with the utmost respect and politeness. Asking for that would be similar to expecting everyone to run screaming away from your 9 Str orc, more or less. If one wishes to be respected and/or feared, they /need/ to have the RP to back that up. Examples made, a position of note /in/ Valesk, etc.

I think the new SS skills are definitely a step in the right direction there, but I'll also agree that perhaps this needs more of a look for characters who /do/ have a position of note in Valesk, as well as the connections necessary to play that out.

Perhaps allowing that NPC guard from the SS skill a bit more freedom is a step in the right direction there? So if a noblewoman doesn't have a PC around to kick the snot out of some uppity peasant, they can at least have their disadvantaged NPC guard give it a shot. Better than nothing, really, especially considering the requirements for the skill.

Another idea is solving this through RP means. Require business owners to find and go through high SS members who hold positions of power/influence in Valesk to acquire the goods necessary to continue operating as a business. Or hell, have the actual Guards respond to those with high SS as suggested above. Not all things requested by nobles will be 'moral' in these times, but based on their position, they could definitely get away with pressuring guards into intimidating people on their behalf, I believe.

Ex:

There isn't a brewery here to the best of my knowledge, unless that's just an unspoken understanding that isn't quite in the build - the tavern has to import alcohol, which would have to go through the Docks and the Harbormaster, who in turn has to operate under the L. Aberwyth Regent's jurisdiction. While the Regent doesn't necessarily oversee /all/ of the business dealings in that situation, one would assume the Regent could make life very difficult for poor Bane purely based on her position and a potential social standing roll against the Harbormaster if the occasion arose.

To summarize, characters definitely can't be /forced/ to play respectfully towards the higher class citizens in Valesk, but I think a few notations on the already existing lore and stat definitions could go a long way towards allowing the means for said higher class citizens to generate consequences for characters who are disrespectful through good RP.