Is magic mandatory?
Aug 21, 2015 5:13:46 GMT -8
Lιттle Ƭree (Cedar Ashland), Tief, and 1 more like this
Post by Shayariel on Aug 21, 2015 5:13:46 GMT -8
I am not sure if this is the right forum for this kind of question, and maybe I just have not researched enough since I am quite new. So please accept my upfront appology if what I post here is utter junk...
Recently I rolled my character, and after playing a necromancer in the last two fantasy sims I played, I considered it fun to play a pure fighter for once, non-educated, ill-mannered, basically the near entire opposite to how my last characters were. Admittingly I considered the character creation system quite complicated, and many interlinked interdependencies - surely also my initial misunderstandings - made it difficult at certain aspects to forge out exactly what I looked for to play. The crew of course was very helpful in that initial process, which I am grateful for, and they also looked into the apps quite fast.
Yet, I think that now I had a bit more time to look into things, have made my first experiences with e.g. fighting or other rolls. And I think I learned that I rolled my char wrong, that I need to use that one free reroll option for the character to make some edges more smooth.
So I invested a bit more time now to research into all those rules and regulations about how characters are meant to be, to function, which skills they can have at which requirements and in which combinations, initially or only through character development. All fine, I think I understood a lot more.
But to the point...
For my current understanding of the written rules, as well as from my experiences from ingame conflicts, it looks as if magic is infact quite a mandatory trait to have, i.e. the ability of spell casting.
The reason for that is, that it is possible for basically everyone to play near any kind of mix-class (if basing pure class on the classic Warrior/Rogue/Priest/Mage). Yet while the magic users gain at once a big flexibility and (self-)support capability with only 1+ points invested in the trait "Magic", with still all fighting still open to them, the Fighting skills themselves usually come at a quite high price, are - unlike magic schools - limited in their combination possibilities, and are compared to the big variety of spells extremely limited (esp. since one may have max 2 skills there).
Example:
With a magic-using human character made like this...:
Fighting (5), Strength (5), Reflexes (7+1=8 incl. reflex trait bonus), Resolve (5), Magic (5+2=7 incl. human race bonus), Knowledge (5), Huntsman/Shadows/Social (0)
... one gets 8 offense & defense rolls (devasting with the "Fast Blade" skill, delta 40 crit rolls with Anatomy skill), 14 spells, 7 mana, 5 hp
... one can opt to have quite devasting ranged spells with a +7 attack roll
... one has the only expense of not being allowed to use/learn the "Armor Mastery" skill
With a NON-magic-using human character made like this...:
Fighting (5), Huntsman (5), Strength (7), Reflexes (5+2+1=8 incl. human race and skill trait bonus), Resolve (5), Knowledge (5), Shadows/Magic/Social (0)
... one gets 8 offense & defense rolls (devasting with the "Fast Blade" skill, delta 40 crit rolls with Anatomy skill), 5 hp, no spells/mana
... one gets archery with a +5 attack roll
... one fighting skill the magic users do not have (Armor Mastery) and that only if one does not want another second (e.g. Dualwielding)
The armor being really the only difference for magic users vs. non-magic users, both skill and in general, it forces basically every pure fighter to choose first Heavy Armor (+4 HP), later Full Plate Armor (+6 HP), both paired with Armor Mastery (+3 HP) to gain an entire 7 to 9 HP, with the magic users still having the option to use at least the heavy, later fullplate, armor if they wish to at the expense of their then reduced mana pool, i.e. up to +6 HP as well. That means the only advantage a pure fighter gets - and only if limiting themselves by choosing Armor Mastery as one out of two possible fighting skills - are a potential 1-3 HP at the expense of sneaking and the like.
Basically so the magic-user of above example can opt to use Heavy Armor and have +4 HP / -4 Magic (mana 3 instead of 7) if going alone and be a 99% fully fledged fighter, or to use normal cloth armor (+0 HP, -0 Magic, i.e. mana 7) if being in a party. The pure fighter does not have that choice, they are not the dangerous foe when toe-to-toe compared to others or at choice, they only become dangerous if another player should opt to not fight at all, which is extremely difficult in itself.
In two battles by now I have seen how that magic is being used - many spells are cast in 1 or 2 emote turns, last for the entire battle scene at least (not e.g. only 2-4 emote rounds or such), resulting in enormous effects.
The magic user gives up those limiting 1-3 HP but gains a very flexible, basically near unrestrictedly combinable spell combination.
In addition those spells are not distributed about ranks, i.e. each spell has no requirements for certain magic or knowledge trait extensions like each fighting skill has, hence one has to invest far more points in "a certain way" to get access to basic fighting skills, some being clearly only available for specific races from the start, for others not before character advancement efforts had been invested, i.e. partly months of play (nothing bad in play, but some plays can get difficult to execute at all given low presence times or broadly unliked play contents like chores).
If one now combines all that above even with racial advantages which seem to be partly distributed following "political considerations" (less played races get better boni?), and which are partly also influencing and giving high advantages in battle or for other rolls, which are available also independant if one plays a caster/magic-user or a non-magic user, one can build terribly strong magic wielding fighters (or rogues, or or or...) which will like always exceed the pure ones.
Now surely I do not want to whine "class balance", in the end it is my choice, and seemingly far more consider this functioning currently. It neither shall be a denouncing of a system as not working as maybe or likely it is exactly intended to be like that. So please consider my post here rather as a question for clarification.
As I currently understand the magic users are at a gross advantage compared to non-magic users. They can undo a lot of their trait choice based disadvantages by simple spells, use the same weapons, use nearly the same armor at least as choice, choose the same skills but one which results in a difference of 1-3 HP. Magic is a vastly powerful tool to add to a character, in addition to about all else open to them and race-based mods, with non-magical characters having near nothing to bring to the field in comparison.
Now... if I am not mistaken, and indeed unveiled a possible issue, without calling for a "nerf" of casters / magic-users... is it perhaps possible to get a certain skillset that scales like spells depending on the fighting trait (avail from fight 1 on unless one has 1 magic too) and that is not open to players who have even only 1 point in the trait "Magic" (if I understand correctly, you need at least 1 in Magic to cast any cantrip or spell at all)?
Example:
Recently I rolled my character, and after playing a necromancer in the last two fantasy sims I played, I considered it fun to play a pure fighter for once, non-educated, ill-mannered, basically the near entire opposite to how my last characters were. Admittingly I considered the character creation system quite complicated, and many interlinked interdependencies - surely also my initial misunderstandings - made it difficult at certain aspects to forge out exactly what I looked for to play. The crew of course was very helpful in that initial process, which I am grateful for, and they also looked into the apps quite fast.
Yet, I think that now I had a bit more time to look into things, have made my first experiences with e.g. fighting or other rolls. And I think I learned that I rolled my char wrong, that I need to use that one free reroll option for the character to make some edges more smooth.
So I invested a bit more time now to research into all those rules and regulations about how characters are meant to be, to function, which skills they can have at which requirements and in which combinations, initially or only through character development. All fine, I think I understood a lot more.
But to the point...
For my current understanding of the written rules, as well as from my experiences from ingame conflicts, it looks as if magic is infact quite a mandatory trait to have, i.e. the ability of spell casting.
The reason for that is, that it is possible for basically everyone to play near any kind of mix-class (if basing pure class on the classic Warrior/Rogue/Priest/Mage). Yet while the magic users gain at once a big flexibility and (self-)support capability with only 1+ points invested in the trait "Magic", with still all fighting still open to them, the Fighting skills themselves usually come at a quite high price, are - unlike magic schools - limited in their combination possibilities, and are compared to the big variety of spells extremely limited (esp. since one may have max 2 skills there).
Example:
With a magic-using human character made like this...:
Fighting (5), Strength (5), Reflexes (7+1=8 incl. reflex trait bonus), Resolve (5), Magic (5+2=7 incl. human race bonus), Knowledge (5), Huntsman/Shadows/Social (0)
... one gets 8 offense & defense rolls (devasting with the "Fast Blade" skill, delta 40 crit rolls with Anatomy skill), 14 spells, 7 mana, 5 hp
... one can opt to have quite devasting ranged spells with a +7 attack roll
... one has the only expense of not being allowed to use/learn the "Armor Mastery" skill
With a NON-magic-using human character made like this...:
Fighting (5), Huntsman (5), Strength (7), Reflexes (5+2+1=8 incl. human race and skill trait bonus), Resolve (5), Knowledge (5), Shadows/Magic/Social (0)
... one gets 8 offense & defense rolls (devasting with the "Fast Blade" skill, delta 40 crit rolls with Anatomy skill), 5 hp, no spells/mana
... one gets archery with a +5 attack roll
... one fighting skill the magic users do not have (Armor Mastery) and that only if one does not want another second (e.g. Dualwielding)
The armor being really the only difference for magic users vs. non-magic users, both skill and in general, it forces basically every pure fighter to choose first Heavy Armor (+4 HP), later Full Plate Armor (+6 HP), both paired with Armor Mastery (+3 HP) to gain an entire 7 to 9 HP, with the magic users still having the option to use at least the heavy, later fullplate, armor if they wish to at the expense of their then reduced mana pool, i.e. up to +6 HP as well. That means the only advantage a pure fighter gets - and only if limiting themselves by choosing Armor Mastery as one out of two possible fighting skills - are a potential 1-3 HP at the expense of sneaking and the like.
Basically so the magic-user of above example can opt to use Heavy Armor and have +4 HP / -4 Magic (mana 3 instead of 7) if going alone and be a 99% fully fledged fighter, or to use normal cloth armor (+0 HP, -0 Magic, i.e. mana 7) if being in a party. The pure fighter does not have that choice, they are not the dangerous foe when toe-to-toe compared to others or at choice, they only become dangerous if another player should opt to not fight at all, which is extremely difficult in itself.
In two battles by now I have seen how that magic is being used - many spells are cast in 1 or 2 emote turns, last for the entire battle scene at least (not e.g. only 2-4 emote rounds or such), resulting in enormous effects.
The magic user gives up those limiting 1-3 HP but gains a very flexible, basically near unrestrictedly combinable spell combination.
In addition those spells are not distributed about ranks, i.e. each spell has no requirements for certain magic or knowledge trait extensions like each fighting skill has, hence one has to invest far more points in "a certain way" to get access to basic fighting skills, some being clearly only available for specific races from the start, for others not before character advancement efforts had been invested, i.e. partly months of play (nothing bad in play, but some plays can get difficult to execute at all given low presence times or broadly unliked play contents like chores).
If one now combines all that above even with racial advantages which seem to be partly distributed following "political considerations" (less played races get better boni?), and which are partly also influencing and giving high advantages in battle or for other rolls, which are available also independant if one plays a caster/magic-user or a non-magic user, one can build terribly strong magic wielding fighters (or rogues, or or or...) which will like always exceed the pure ones.
Now surely I do not want to whine "class balance", in the end it is my choice, and seemingly far more consider this functioning currently. It neither shall be a denouncing of a system as not working as maybe or likely it is exactly intended to be like that. So please consider my post here rather as a question for clarification.
As I currently understand the magic users are at a gross advantage compared to non-magic users. They can undo a lot of their trait choice based disadvantages by simple spells, use the same weapons, use nearly the same armor at least as choice, choose the same skills but one which results in a difference of 1-3 HP. Magic is a vastly powerful tool to add to a character, in addition to about all else open to them and race-based mods, with non-magical characters having near nothing to bring to the field in comparison.
Now... if I am not mistaken, and indeed unveiled a possible issue, without calling for a "nerf" of casters / magic-users... is it perhaps possible to get a certain skillset that scales like spells depending on the fighting trait (avail from fight 1 on unless one has 1 magic too) and that is not open to players who have even only 1 point in the trait "Magic" (if I understand correctly, you need at least 1 in Magic to cast any cantrip or spell at all)?
Example:
- Flurry: A fighter can announce a Flurry, which means he executes up to X fast attacks in a straight row, with X being the value of his fighting skill, the flurry is only broken by a critical defense (or something the like)
- Targeted Attack: A fighter can add up to X (X being their fighting skill) for targeted attacks, each reducing the ranked roll by one rank and adding +1 to the damage dealt if hit (e.g. medium weapon, +2 dmg normal, with a +5 attack it would be 7 dmg)
- Targeted Feint: works similar to the targeted attack, just not +X dmg but +X rank modifier for the single next attack roll
Or something like that?