9,653 posts
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Post by Cailean on Aug 25, 2015 19:47:22 GMT -8
Well Bob is a retard who only knows how to hit shit with his sword then.
I guess he has developed no other useful skills in his life, so yes, that would be the result. Bob has never learned to bandage anyone, sneak, run, misdirect, or any number of things that can be done physically. He only swings his sword. He also doesn't know how to love, write poetry, or anything else. He's just a meathead that swings his sword and that's it.
The bottom line: Magic is not mandatory to have a good time in RP.
Magic is a versatile tool that lets you do a number of different things, but not having magic doesn't limit you or the stories that you can write, which is the point of RP. So what if someone can wave their hands and heal someone? Sometimes not being as effective creates more plot than being effective.
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Post by Lιттle Ƭree (Cedar Ashland) on Aug 25, 2015 19:53:58 GMT -8
Let's not also forget that we have a magic shop on the sim and a number of magical characters who all have ranks of alchemy. Meaning any nonmagical character CAN have access to temporary magical effects if they wish it or feel it might be necessary for a situation.
Aside from that, versatility for fighters is there as much as it is for the mages. Fighters have weapons and Fighting Styles and mages have spells. Can you be a hybrid of the two? You sure can but then you are missing out on a few things from either side. But this is all talk of the systems in place -- not the actual RP. And I think as far as RP goes you are only as limited as what you can think of, within the confines of sim rules.
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Post by Tief on Aug 25, 2015 19:54:48 GMT -8
i guess im a retard.
and having an uncle is i know exactly what that slur means.
nothing else to say
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Post by Shayariel on Aug 26, 2015 1:12:53 GMT -8
Well Bob is a retard who only knows how to hit shit with his sword then. I guess he has developed no other useful skills in his life, so yes, that would be the result. Bob has never learned to bandage anyone, sneak, run, misdirect, or any number of things that can be done physically. He only swings his sword. He also doesn't know how to love, write poetry, or anything else. He's just a meathead that swings his sword and that's it. The bottom line: Magic is not mandatory to have a good time in RP. Magic is a versatile tool that lets you do a number of different things, but not having magic doesn't limit you or the stories that you can write, which is the point of RP. So what if someone can wave their hands and heal someone? Sometimes not being as effective creates more plot than being effective. OK, so maybe I should have a bit more specific: I should likely have added "conflict specific" to the subjected question. Of course I have a ton of fun also with other plays, especially being that honor sprouting grunt where many players (as it is more than common in SL RP) display rather the modern western RL world codes of ethics, the challenges she gets from being as grunt more honorable knight than the best knight who, in most fantasy lore, would risk their lives to defend what even only himself considers honor, from being rather the grunt that is usually easily sacrificed by rulers and political/romantical intriguers but still pushes to war the most, from the relations she gets from interacting with the various other characters she meets with her simple ways. If I would not have fun, I would not be there to play anymore. That you can do a lot of things with magic in general is not a question, but the versatility and count of options is what is topic really - including pumping oneself up to par with pure fighters on the pure fighters' core grounds: pure fighting. My background there is that no one should be able to rival a pure mage in magic, a pure fighter in fighting, a pure healer in healing, a pure rogue in rogue'ing, etc. If those who give their chars such "drawbacks" and limitations get the short end of the stick because others may do "cherry picking" (yes, that is damn tempting for many SL RPers), it is just not fair. Yet it was not even my initial intention to "create fairness" - for that I know the entire system yet too little - but just to learn if magic (for conflict events) is mandatory, i.e. envisioned, for the sim. This was richly abnegated in this thread. But then a magic-user should not have the entire non-magic user in his belly plus more. Let's not also forget that we have a magic shop on the sim and a number of magical characters who all have ranks of alchemy. Meaning any nonmagical character CAN have access to temporary magical effects if they wish it or feel it might be necessary for a situation. Aside from that, versatility for fighters is there as much as it is for the mages. Fighters have weapons and Fighting Styles and mages have spells. Can you be a hybrid of the two? You sure can but then you are missing out on a few things from either side. But this is all talk of the systems in place -- not the actual RP. And I think as far as RP goes you are only as limited as what you can think of, within the confines of sim rules. Alchemy then means - in the spirit of this thread - that a non-magic user has to pay to get single uses of e.g. self-buffs that a magic-user has free at their disposal anyways, flexible, plus the entire skill options of the pure fighter. That sounds a bit far off for me. And if the mage has chosen other spells than those combat influencing self-buffs of e.g. Corpse Magic, they have the option of taking Alchemy potions as well in addition to all their other options. Unless I missed a change of rules and settings - e.g. by missing an IoV SL group in which that was broadcasted - the statement about the versatility of fighters is wrong, at least if taken in comparison to magic-users, which was one topic of most my posts here: The magic-user has All the same options as a non-magic-user PLUS the options he gets from investing points into the trait magic, i.e. 2*magic times in spells from various categories (evocation, necromancy, etc.), spell schools, etc. If you say "Fighters have weapons"... magic users can use the same weapons, a mage can well swing a bihander sword, a waraxe or the like. The only difference is that magic-users, i.e. people with a trait Magic value of 1+, may not choose the "Armor Mastery" skill, which offers +1 to +3 HP depending on the rank. A magic-user though can choose freely, at the then self decided expense of mana-pool, to wear full plate amor, heavy armor, etc. If you say "fighters have fighting styles", the very same applies. A magic-user needs 1 - one - point to invest in magic, and he has spells for no other pre-requisites. A fighter must at least invest 4 - four - points into Strength or Knowledge (Shield Mastery or Precision Strike) to meet one out of two or three required skill prerequisites at all before he gets a usually quite tiny benefit. PLUS they must have a fighting value of 8 or more to have one of those skills at the beginning (i.e. it is very limiting already to start as pure fighter, while anyone can dump a point into magic) - and the requirements for all those single skills makes it really hard to have any of them, and even more on a useful level, at the beginning at all. Compared to that: 1 point into magic, 2 spells, 1 spell school, one outrockets any pure fighter in conflict, depending on class choice and dice luck. The single skills for fighters, how are they useful for a fighter:
Fast Blade
Fighting 5 and Reflexes 5
This is likely the easiest to reach or most attractive skill for the beginning and without doing the maths. But in fact it is very useless for the beginning. As fighter beginner, to have any of these skills at all, you need to have 8+ Fighting trait. That means you raise it to 6 and invest a +2 racial bonus if possible. That allows you to have ONE other trait at 6, e.g. Reflexes. That again means that you start with a value in Fighting 8 and Resolve 6, for attack with this skill 7. Why should I not take the higher value for attacking, Fighting?
Unless you train in a month of RP to get Reflex up to 7, IC it means your fighter aims to alter his fighting style from the established to just another, this skill has for the beginner no value.
Shield Mastery
Fighting 5, Strength 4, and Resolve 6
This skill also forces you to go the 6/6-else-5 route as well to start with this, 6 being fighting (+ racial bonus) and resolve to get you a skill that forces you to chose one handed weapons, medium weapons, max so you can use a shield, as if you do not use a shield, you must defend with Reflex and accept to drop you defense mod from R8 to R5 or less. This skill is basically options limiting for a fighter, both weapon type and fighting style.
Armor Mastery
Fighting 5 and Strength 6
This skill also forces you to go the 6/6-else-5 route as well to start with this, 6 being fighting (+ racial bonus) and strength to get you a skill that forces you into certain armor - every fighter is urged to run about as full plate knight to get a noticeable HP advantage. And also this skill is to be taken as 1 out of max 2 from this category of skills. So taking the skill that means the only advantage means to limit 50% of all choices even further, choices that all come at a much higher count of requirements than "+1 magic".
Dual Weapon
Fighting 7 and Reflexes 7
Near impossible to get at start of a career, which is ok, but for an experienced dual wielder the two weapons should only give a tiny advantage once a battle ("Can be used once per combat scene. If you fail the attempt you may not make use of this skill again during the scene.")?! That renders it a useless skill, that is clearly not a fighting style, it is a lucky punch attack rather.
Small Weapons
Fighting 6 and Reflexes 6
This skill also forces you to go the 6/6-else-5 route as well to start with this, 6 being fighting (+ racial bonus) and Reflexes, to get a skill that is nice for rogues and other shadowy people. Really well thought out skill, but yes, mostly for Rogue types.
Precision Strikes
Huntsman 7 and Knowledge 4
I assume this skill is only in the Fight skills table because it shall be limited as 1 out of max 2 choosable skills. Else it is a Huntsman skill. It is impossible to get from the start, except you manage to get somehow a +1 mod to the Huntsman trait aside of the required Fighting 8 to have such a skill at the start at all. A pure fighter who goes character progression will first raise his fighting relevant traits and skills before chosing this very late in his career - if at all and if yet possible due to the max 2 rule.
Way of the Norris
10 strength, 10 fighting, 10 huntsman, 10 shadows, 10 magic, 10 social standing, 10 reflexes, 10 resolve, 10 knowledge
This is a joke, right?
Again: you see this list of requirements. All these skills but one are open to magic-users too, and those need to drop only 1 point in the trait magic and get a huge load of conflict influencing options, from spells to spell schools and can still choose to work like a pure fighter!
Now if you say "Can you be a hybrid of the two? You sure can but then you are missing out on a few things from either side", that sounds really like a mocking of all that was posted in the above thread already, rather a defense of the status quo of magic loving cherry picking. Sorry to put it that harsh. That you are missing anything from "either side" is just not true if you go for magic. You DO have any option of a non-magic user at the expense of only 1 thing (the Armor Mastery skill). It is an option, you can choose to endure drawbacks or not. The non-magic user (i.e. magic rank 0) does not have the option to cast spells as flexible as a magic user can by just putting on a silk garb. Examples: Arthur the human fighterFighting: 6 +2 racial bonus Magic: 0 Huntsman: 2 Shadows: 0 Knowledge: 3 Strength: 6 Reflexes: 5 Resolve: 5 Social: 3 Skills: Armor Mastery as it is the only that makes sense, and maybe some from the other traits --> Hitpoints: 5 (Human) +6 (Full Plate Armor) +3 (Skill) = 14 or --> Hitpoints: 5 (Human) +4 (Heavy Armor) +3 (Skill) = 12 or --> Hitpoints: 5 (Human) +3 (Medium Armor) +2 (Skill) = 10 or --> Hitpoints: 5 (Human) +1 (Light Armor) +1 (Skill) = 7 Arthur can use max Medium weapons (2 dmg) Merlin the human casterFighting: 5 Magic: 6 +2 racial bonus Huntsman: 0 Shadows: 0 Knowledge: 5 Strength: 6 Reflexes: 4 Resolve: 4 Social: 0 Skills: Various, no fighting skill Spells: Cheetah's Grace (+2 Reflex), Call to War (e.g. +1 Fight and +1 Reflex), School: e.g. Battlemage (+1 Fight per mana) This means, this Merlin comes out with 5 hitpoints, 7 Mana, 14 spells, a spell school, misses one fight skill at the start. Armor does not effect battle mages, i.e. a Battle Mage or Numinous Blade can go full plate too: --> Hitpoints: 5 (Human) +6 (Full Plate Armor) = 11 or --> Hitpoints: 5 (Human) +1 (Light Armor) = 6 at no expense of mana, trait rank rolls, etc. Given Merlin has time to cast before conflict breaks out, he can buff his Reflexes by +2 (Cheetah's Grace), Fight/Ref each +1 (Call to War) and Fighting again +2 by his battlemage skills, for an entire 4 out of 7 mana. This turns him, at will, to Fighting 8, Reflex 7 by which he already exceeds Arthur PLUS he still has 3 Mana to cast whatever evocation, curse, debuff on him, summon a companion/pet, buff the pet, and can likely use a load of other spells for other roleplay purposes - Merlin does have the option to do that, Arthur does not. Also, even as battle mage, Merlin can opt every other combination of spells allowed to general magic casters. He is not restricted from evocation, necromancy, etc. (and if he actually is restricted from one of the mentioned, then replace it with another). Morgana the pure human casterMorgana has no wish for melee/physical toe-to-toe or ranged conflict unless forced to Fighting: 5 Magic: 7 +2 racial bonus Huntsman: 0 Shadows: 0 Knowledge: 4 Strength: 5 Reflexes: 3 Resolve: 5 Social: 1 Skills: Various, no fighting skill Spells: Various, focused on e.g. evocation School: e.g. Elementalists Morgana does not do much melee, but she will surely use Elemental shield as "damage shield" against attackers, if she sees that interactions go the route of conflict, she begins to cast something, telling the enemy she casts something non-hostile as feint, begins the battle herself then as only the first casting of a nuke needs 2 posts, all other 1, i.e. are instant and not interuptable anymore. Maybe she casts that flame bolt even viscious, which means there is no defense possible, and she can opt to add follow-up damage to the medium damage combat start. That means, Morgana, 5 HP due to not even light armor, opens a battle with 2-4 non-defendable damage, which again already negates all benefits of pure fighters (WITH Armor Mastery) up to medium armor. Then, for every strike that is landed on Morgana, the attacker takes 1 damage back. All subsequent medium damage casts of Morgana take also only 1 round. Result of the exampleIn conflict, Arthur is inferior to Merlin, and Morgana has to only be careful if she meets Arthur in heavy or full plate armor. Else she has a quite fair chance. Now if Morgana says, she wants to sacrifice a bit mana for lifepower, she puts on an armor too, meadium armor -2 magic / +3 hitpoints, turns her into a char with 7 magic/mana and 8 hitpoints, or heavy armor (-4 magic, +4 hp) into a char with 5 magic/mana and 9 hitpoints. AND she can opt to fight with even large weapons, during battles either use the 2 dmg spells or the 3 damage melee weapon once mana runs out. She has, at the very beginning of her career, already 18 spells, Arthur does not have 18 utility, general roleplay supporting, or even battle influencing maneuvers (that are not only purely for textbased RP). Even with the spell casting "ingredients" of having to do motions or speak incantation formulas one can very well disguise a spell. A fighter cannot just begin to slash any mage that begins to fumble with their hands or begins to recite a spell in an ancient language in front of them. I bet that no mage will cast their spell by playing "/me begins to repeat the words: "May a fireball strike you, may a fireball strike you, ...". Maybe the IC talk went even into a whole other direction that does not allow the fighter to realize that the mage is in real casting a lethal nuke there instead of the kind weapon blessing he had talked about. And BAAAAAM, -4 hit points, Armor Mastery benefit more than gone, if that skill was not available, the armor benefit is gone, and if the fighter had only light armor then there is only the options to surrender or die at 1 or 2 HP anymore. The only thing the fighter's player then can say anymore is: "at least I did not metagame"... |
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3,197 posts
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Post by Lιттle Ƭree (Cedar Ashland) on Aug 26, 2015 4:16:05 GMT -8
We've been tweaking the system and what is offered every day, and a notice will be going out soon with what we refer to as patch notes. (i believe the ETA on that is tomorrow actually.) because we could not have this perfectly balanced before they were put into play and tested first.
I'm sorry if my words seemed somehow mocking or contradictory to you but they weren't meant to be.
If the number of options is to low for you re fighting styles, we have more on the way. If you are worried because mages can do everything a fighter can and more they can not. Mages can either have one fighting style only, if belonging to a combat school, or none at all. Previously, fighters could have two, but that was recently changed to however many they meet requirements for.
Yes mages can use weapons and armor as fighters can but armor reduces they're Magic which in turn lowers the rank they can roll with a well as how large their mana pool is. Both of which effect how many spells can be cast and the chance they have of winning a roll (if rolls are used. Dice do not need to be used unless in a scene with a SW).
Beyond that I don't know what to say. It's been explained already that the sim doesn't intend for Magic to be required and the ways we feel fighters are set up to hold their own. Also that for combat we have had test runs done and watched over RP and fighters continue to have the upper hand and better chances of winning than would a mage. While I understand your experiences have not shown this, this is in fact true. Between luck and being powergamed you were able to be defeated by a mage. I will point out it took power gaming and the mage being a battle mage, the one school of mage we have also said was built to hold their own against fighters, for you to be defeated, and from the logs I read, it took a few rounds still.
Believe it or not, there was the concern a few weeks ago that mages were too weak.. Lol
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Post by Tief on Aug 26, 2015 4:47:00 GMT -8
I am not sure how to take this. I was told by the admin that yes, hybrid classes are more versatile in combat situations, that this was good (and any other condition, apparently, was inconceivable), and that if someone wanted a straight fighter to be more versatile they should become expert bakers, weavers, bar-hoppers and firetrucks. Okay I'm joking about the firetruck. But not much. Basically anything not covered by the rules and having nothing to do with what they were supposed to be good at.
leaving me wondering what am I even doing here.
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Post by Shayariel on Aug 26, 2015 7:02:49 GMT -8
We've been tweaking the system and what is offered every day, and a notice will be going out soon with what we refer to as patch notes. (i believe the ETA on that is tomorrow actually.) because we could not have this perfectly balanced before they were put into play and tested first. I'm sorry if my words seemed somehow mocking or contradictory to you but they weren't meant to be. If the number of options is to low for you re fighting styles, we have more on the way. If you are worried because mages can do everything a fighter can and more they can not. Mages can either have one fighting style only, if belonging to a combat school, or none at all. Previously, fighters could have two, but that was recently changed to however many they meet requirements for. Yes mages can use weapons and armor as fighters can but armor reduces they're Magic which in turn lowers the rank they can roll with a well as how large their mana pool is. Both of which effect how many spells can be cast and the chance they have of winning a roll (if rolls are used. Dice do not need to be used unless in a scene with a SW). Beyond that I don't know what to say. It's been explained already that the sim doesn't intend for Magic to be required and the ways we feel fighters are set up to hold their own. Also that for combat we have had test runs done and watched over RP and fighters continue to have the upper hand and better chances of winning than would a mage. While I understand your experiences have not shown this, this is in fact true. Between luck and being powergamed you were able to be defeated by a mage. I will point out it took power gaming and the mage being a battle mage, the one school of mage we have also said was built to hold their own against fighters, for you to be defeated, and from the logs I read, it took a few rounds still. Believe it or not, there was the concern a few weeks ago that mages were too weak.. Lol My posts were regarding the status quo, i.e. not what is upcoming, and in that way I replied to posts if they sounded to me as if talking about the current state. I know that there is something upcoming, I am sure it will need testing and tweaking - every system does, even if it comes from my crazy brain  The point it all boils down in the end is the SL common RP style aspects:
1) It is very hard to implement a system, e.g. for combat or general interaction, that is all fair, all spanning and still no rocket science. E.g. the main issue for RP&dice based combat is that you cannot really implement a range system, which means weapon length, projectile reach or alone walk/run speed. I.e. an archer, a magician, or even a fighter using a lance against a dagger using thief can never profit from that advantage. This aspect is difficult because everyone can move a 100m within one emote, or just emote to move past the pole arm of the other.
2) On the other side, every classic RP lore, as well as many SL RP sims, propagate that mages are toe-to-toe inferior to a pure fighter, incl. battle mages, due to their versatility and variance of options for often more than only combat. Also that a battle mage here for example can adjust his trait ranks depending on what type of enemy he faces would justify that he is also always "1 level inferior" in the end than the one who sports that fighting style pure. This means if he goes archery against a pure archer (huntsman self buff corpse spell), if he goes fighting against a pure fighter as laid out above or agility based against an agility fighter (which is here only reflected by the Fast Blade skill).
In general one would expect that a mage if going into a lethal battle in which he faces mundane weapons, aims to not go alone, but escorted by fighters of his own whom he then supports with his magic, and from behind the front lines. The front is fighter territory. This aspect also is difficult as most SL players feel the must to win, and due to that they mix the strongest aspects into their char which guarantees a victory with best chances. They feel the must to be able to do all alone without suffering a risk for or outright negative consequences (defeat, capture, death) for their character which often enough represents their RL self.
3) One cannot on the entire other hand restrict the classes too much, and shape the various classes too detailed, i.e. totally block a cherry picking, as then a sim will dry out empty. The ones who would go with that are usually too few to keep a sim alive and have the level of fun also they deserve. All already experienced on my side.
Those three points above are - at least for me - hardcore immersion killing, and been such throughout my SL RP career, through all themes I had played. In Mystara and other sims we have actually played out those aspects. E.g. I remember when one of our Orc berserkers went as "tank" against two enemies, while two archers and a shaman in the back prepared the big nukes. That orc managed to keep the "aggro" of 1 dark elven fighter and 1 dragon while the others used the several emote rounds it took to channel and then cast the spells or while the archer distracted the enemies with arrow shots once per round. When then the nukes went off, the battle was decided. Funny enough that the enemy players did not notice that tactic. And, and that is one thing I love about the IoV system, even if it needs to be ironed out a bit yet in my perception, is the indeed existent option for fighting styles. You can be a brute strength trait based fighter, a technical fighting trait based fighter, a fast Reflex based fighter. I remember it killing my mood when I saw an ELF battle an ORC, and the elf thought he should compete based on strength and not the classic agility which also his avatar setup was reflecting while the orc was really a slow muscle mountain. Also in another sim - the spell system close to that of Mystara, just more refined (you got the files, Little Tree) - it was very clear that a mage in melee combat against a fighter would drown fast, just as a fighter who could not reach the mage for whatever reason or neglectance risked to die. Again so, the issue is that the mages do have options a non-mage, and I assume it includes the thief/shadow types too, do not have. Partly from SL RPer common play style, partly from IoV rules. Yet what I personally would love to see - and wait for what you all will implement as told - is a system that does not punish people that keep the power-cherry-picking at a minimum, incl. giving their characters lethal weaknesses, lethal for a given system. What I would like to see is real options also for non-magic-users (not only fighters, also rogues, archers, etc.), and a system that gives all directions at least so much incentive to NOT do certain things alone that it enhances interaction. For example, and with that I would also like to relative the powergaming of my eventual prior enemy, the definition of which was entirely based on him doing "spells secretly", i.e. without the motions or spoken words required as ingredient: My character is as race given drawback "non-magical", i.e. she has no clue about magic. You can sway your arms in front of her for the world scattering super nuke and all you will get from her will be a "Are you nuts? There is no wosp you need to shoo away!" Said player also had parked his magically size/traits buffed dire wolf in the back for both fights, just in the first fight the pet had come to aid him after I had a damn load of critical hits and him critical misses, which was what finally defeated me. But in average rolls there would been not even a normal chance for me to win toe-to-toe against this battle mage (and given: I do not know if he had already progressed 1-15 traits at that time). The second battle showed that pretty clear: He buffed his Fighting trait up with the Battle Mage skills, and whooped me with only his fists (against my large weapon sword). I have no issue to lose against a "higher level", no issue to lose at all really, yet meanwhile I took the stylish barbarian furs off and replaced them with something that looks both barbarian and can pass as heavy armor at least - a 9-11 Hitpoints Battle Mage against a 5-6 Hitpoints light armored pure fighter is too risky for my char, and my char will make mistakes, will risk her life, but that difference is just too self destructive. Another sidenote: That player was very nice to me, basically explained a lot of the combat system to me, incl. what would benefit my char in the battle at hand and against him. The only thing I see in the current system as it is posed, if it means that the average knight-level armored fighter is stronger or not (sad that it is only based on armor as a sidenote), is that magic users do get far more maneuvers as option without having to A) invest as many points for a similar count as non-magic-users (meeting the requirements for 1-x skills is far harder than dumping 1-9 points into Magic at creation) and B) that those options still allow magic-users to opt to be exactly like or even better than non-magic-users, in battle or else, non-magic-users do not have them. Another set of examples, in regards to fighting styles / schools: Fighter A: What does he have to invest to be a lethal twohander swinging knight with shield (Armor Mastery, Shield Mastery, Goliath Grip)? Fighting 8, Strength 8, Reflexes 5, Resolve 6 - that is 27 trait points, this setup is not reachable from the start Fighter B: What does he have to invest to be that often seen dual wielding Samurai (Armor Mastery, Dual Weapon Fighting, Coup de grâce)? Fighting 8, Strength 6, Reflexes 9 - 23 points, neither to be taken from the start, apart of dual wielding being basically worthless, it gives you for one attack that lands or does not land a benefit Fighter C: What does he have to invest to be that rapier swinging pirate fighter (Stealth Melee, Small Weapons Technician, Fast Blade Style, Anatomy of (Race))? Fighting 8 (for at least one battle skill yet), Reflexes 6, Shadow 5, Knowledge 5 - 24 points, the final stage of this combat style being reachable only after progression. In addition this fighting style has a severe disadvantage when it comes to armor/hitpoints - armor is chosen as low... A magic user... Magic 7 (+2 racial bonus), a few Corpse/Naturalism spells and he can already opt to be like most of them, eventually with replacing certain aspects by magic help (e.g. armor or shield with mage self protections), and he will likely also outdo the fighters. In addition he gets further skills/maneuvers from their Spell School which the pure fighters (or rogues, etc.) have nothing to compare with (yet). A magic-user can grab two weapons, just he does not get that one special attack that might miss, he cannot grab a two hander and a shield at the same time, but he can use a quite long medium sword and a shield, or a two hander on its own, he can raise his attack and Reflexes to outperform the agile pirate. And that is what I earlier said would not be true in terms of options and missing out. One can even call me "constructing examples" for what I posted above, but the truth is that every 1 skill nearly needs at least 2 traits at a value of 4 plus to get 1 often tiny adjustment/maneuver, whereas 1 point in Magic already gives 2 spells. I am not sure how to take this. I was told by the admin that yes, hybrid classes are more versatile in combat situations, that this was good (and any other condition, apparently, was inconceivable), and that if someone wanted a straight fighter to be more versatile they should become expert bakers, weavers, bar-hoppers and firetrucks. Okay I'm joking about the firetruck. But not much. Basically anything not covered by the rules and having nothing to do with what they were supposed to be good at. leaving me wondering what am I even doing here. Now that alone would be pretty sarchastic a reply if I did not misunderstand it or misunderstand the context it was given: "If you want to be as versatile as a mage, add bakery to your fighting". That tells basically the opposite of the replies in this thread, i.e. that magic is mandatory in a way. Versatility as I see it though, does not / may not equal power. It can be used to be good in many aspects, but it also usually means to be expert in none. Those who relinquish this versatility to specialize in a certain aspect usually exceed all others in exactly that aspect - and none else. Should that really been an official reply of an official admin, I can tell you what you are doing here: Roleplaying while you wait for the new system to be out, tested and analyzed, then you reroll a magic-user |
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Post by Shayariel on Aug 26, 2015 7:11:31 GMT -8
One addition of what I learned in my entire SL RP life:
Many most players want their characters to be the ultimate hero, the protagonist of all stories, the one that always comes out victories and often without drawbacks or negative impacts. Often enough they want to solve everything alone (while others watch or pay them awe), if to shine as hero or to finish something before they could miss out on how the story continues as they might have to log off at a point...
But that, partly understandable for SL limitations like player playtimes / timezones, personal animosities, emoting styles, etc., comes only, and always, at the expense of interaction. Players being "forced" to combine skills of various classes to get all required strengths and counter as many weaknesses as possible, is the core of about all MMORPGs that have a raid game or RvR system in place, which makes them so successful often (plus the continuously added content).
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Post by Lιттle Ƭree (Cedar Ashland) on Aug 26, 2015 9:05:35 GMT -8
I do believe this steps a bit beyond me just due to how I view RP, RP in sl, and combat. Lol so Ima have Cailean peek through for you! Thanks again shayariel.  |
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9,653 posts
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Post by Cailean on Aug 26, 2015 11:12:08 GMT -8
I spoke with Shayariel in-world and I think I have a good understanding of her issues. There are a few legitimate issues that she brought up and the admin team will work on solutions.
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3,197 posts
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Post by Lιттle Ƭree (Cedar Ashland) on Aug 26, 2015 11:45:39 GMT -8
Thanks again guys! We love our players and our players brains - for all they contribute that makes this sim so great!
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6 posts
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Post by Knife on Aug 26, 2015 12:07:19 GMT -8
For various reasons, including being a "pure" fighter type myself, I've been watching this thread with great interest. Like Shay, this isn't my first go-around with an SL RP sim and it certainly won't be the last. I too have encountered (in previous incarnations) the kinds of concerns she's been raising first-hand. However let me start by saying that I think the entire staff should be lauded for all their hard work to bring us an amazing, friendly, and rich environment in which to participate. Valesk has a fantastic community and every reason to succeed.
The first thing I'd like to focus on is the very title of this thread, 'Is magic mandatory?' I've seen several paths leading down from it. The first is the literal interpretation, is it mandatory? If taken literally, then the answer is no. There is no rule that says its mandatory. However thats not what Shay is asking. She's speaking in the practical sense. And from that perspective, the answer is a solid "it depends."
"Do you need to have magic trait points to have a good time RPing in Valesk?" Absolutely not. I believe you can RP enjoyably in Valesk with ZERO stat points. Nada. Nothing. Zip. You could be a baker or a shop-owner or any number of townsfolk that live very rich lives without the help of "Ranked Rolls". This would mean however that you cannot hope to compete with a "player-character" who has invested their points into traits or participate in events. So while you could RP to your hearts content, you could not be for example, a guard where the threat of combat is a very real possibility. My point is that certainly RP can be enjoyed without the use of ranked rolls up until the part where ranked rolls are necessary. So by extension, magic trait points are not necessary for RP situations where ranked rolls don't come into play.
When ranked rolls do come into play, is having the magic trait mandatory? Ranked rolls are based directly on your trait scores. Higher ranks should expect victory more often than lower ranks, especially if the difference is great. The traits define your vision of the character. Spend points in Strength, expect to be stronger. Spend them in Knowledge, expect to be more knowledgable. Spend them in Fighting, expect to be better in melee. Spend them in Magic, expect to cast miracles. So on and so forth. So what happens when a trait overlaps another? At first glance, none of the traits overlap, so whats the problem? The problem is just as Shay has pointed out so eloquently in her Arthur vs Merlin comparison. With points spent in magic and careful selection of spells, a mage can be a mage AND a fighter statistically as good or better than a pure fighter of higher skill. By pure, I mean a fighter who has spent no points in magic. It seems to be a "I get my piece of the talent pie, plus yours too." type of situation.
Regarding combat, I've heard it said that pure fighters have tested better than mages or hybrid fighter/mages. As tested, the battles are DPS races and pure fighters have higher DPS so more often come out on top. This assumes that the contestants start the "race" at the same time. But what if, as Shay pointed out, there is some uncertainty and one gets to start before the other? Swinging a weapon at someone is a pretty clear sign of intent. Rolling your eyes up in your head and mumbling heebie-jeebie words could mean anything. Or maybe the mage is smart enough to go "off-camera" for a bit and buff up before coming back. Who knows. Point is that it can be done prior without being a declaration of hostility. And what happens when the fighter is held back by a summon or a spell effect? I'd think that more casting time means more buffs / curses and thats all bad news for the fighter. I am not an expert. I can't say one way or another which is best. That there is even this much debate tells me however that its close enough that mages are at least on par with fighters.
Regarding non-combat situations, a mage also has utility in many situations by virtue of their spells. A fighter has no additional utility in those same situations by virtue of their fighting abilities. Both mages and fighters can bring non-trait based skills to the table. (Viva la bakers!) So saying that this doesn't count as an inequality because fighters can be bakers makes no sense.
What I hope to do is legitimize how the pure fighter types might feel inadequate when they see others who have gone with either a fighter/magic combination (for the best of both worlds) or even pure magic who can match (or exceed) their ability when it comes to fighting and still have all the utility that spellcasting can provide in non-combat situations too. Given this, isn't it a disadvantage not to take magic and thus doesn't it then become in some sense "mandatory?"
It truly pains me to see the impact this discussion has had on some people. I completely understand how its been frustrating for the staff who have spent untold number of hours designing this system to have to examine it again or feel like they have to defend or justify it. However my heart especially goes out to any who feel like their character can no longer compare to those who can "do it all" by spreading their points between fighting and magic. Its worse when your character concept precludes you from learning magic and yet you feel at a disadvantage in RP for not having it. Its not about winning. Its about feeling relevant.
All the best,
Knife.
(PS. I feel like I was a bit late to post, given the thank yous by the admin team. Still I hope my thoughts are welcome and not too redundant.)
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3,197 posts
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Post by Lιттle Ƭree (Cedar Ashland) on Aug 26, 2015 13:21:25 GMT -8
Never redundant (ok maybe sometimes, but you get my drift I hope!) or unwelcome. I think you very eloquently stated a number of things. There isn't much more that can be said by us at this time however as we are in discussion re points Cailean brought back after his talk with Shayariel. However, I did want to address one thing: "Or maybe the mage is smart enough to go "off-camera" for a bit and buff up before coming back. " So far as I am aware, this is against our sim rules. All casted effects like buffs, need to occur during the RP scene they intend to be used. Hope that helps. |
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Post by Knife on Aug 26, 2015 14:19:11 GMT -8
Thanks Cedar. I do understand that the topic has wound to a close. I just wanted to summarize as best I could.
You were definitely right to point out the off-camera comment. It was a poor choice of words. I was thinking of it in the sense of while within RP range, anticipating that you are going to confront someone, casting your buffs then declaring your intent to fight your intended adversary. However what I said completely didn't capture that. Thanks for the correction!
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Cyn
Denizen
Existence questionable.
98 posts
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Post by Cyn on Aug 26, 2015 23:27:53 GMT -8
The best way I can really phrase this is that Mages and Fighters have very separate, distinct advantages from each other. Battlemages more or less will share the advantages of whichever side they play to more in combat, but they do still ring up (when designed specifically to break the system) as one of the better classes in the different categories I've been separating them into. FOR INSTANCE. Fighters have something huge going for them, and that something is consistency. You have no ramp-up time, you have no costs to expend just to begin a fight. Fighters enter a fight and IMMEDIATELY roll for damage. Not to mention they already have their armor in place, are capable of using materials and poisons, and need only make 1 roll to meet their max damage potential. Add in the advantage of Fighting Styles (which I'm sure will continue to grow as they have been consistently), and you have some pretty unique no-magic builds available that can get pretty interesting. Seriously, try playing around with some, it's great fun! Mages have a lot of damage potential. With another build designed to break the system, they can get extremely scary, but they have a pretty hefty disadvantage, or rather set of disadvantages. Firstly, the ramp-up time I mentioned earlier. Think Feral Druid if you ever played WoW  /nerdglasses. Seriously though, even with a quick-damage build like an elementalist, you're gonna need three turns at the absolute least to make your first damage roll, because most Mages will use Shielding. If they don't? Well, their total of 5 Hit Points should be disadvantage enough compared to a potential 14. Secondly, they actually have to spend their Mana to prepare themselves for combat, which in turn reduces the amount of total spells they're capable of. Granted, many spells can be cast without use of mana, but certain spell effects require mana - it's a limiting factor, even if not a huge one. Third, we have our roll amounts. This can really be viewed one of two ways, but a mage with a really threatening build likely has to make 2-3 rolls per turn to determine success, and we all know how dice are sometimes. Finally, mages can be interrupted or grappled and generally rendered helpless. Again, they have to spend their Mana to continue spells through interruption, and grappling a Mage who likely has between 1-3 strength is pretty good odds on the side of the fighter with 7 for the purpose of Massive damage, based on what Equi mentioned above. Getting to Battlemages, if you really think about it, they suffer from the disadvantages of either side they play to as well. While a battlemage may be able to reach one Hit Point higher than anyone else if they min/max, they'll still suffer from mage inconsistency if they choose to cast, or the not-quite-so versatile fighter disadvantage if they choose to brawl. The fact that they can choose one or the other makes them interesting, not overpowered. That being said, I think it would be a nice touch to bring the Light Armor bonus up to 2, then limit Battlemages back to Light armor - it equalizes them with the highest possible HP fighters and Mages. Granted, I've not peeked at what else that might mess up, but there you have it. I've done a few interesting character spreads based on 'breaking the system', happy to share those sometime if it helps anyone develop their points. Additionally: Things Mages can pursue IC: Spells, Enchanting, Alchemy, Trait Advancement, Trait-Based Skills. Things Fighters can pursue IC: Alchemy, Trait Advancement, Trait-Based Skills, Fighting Styles, Materials (Metals), Poisons, Blacksmithing. Man, I was late, wasn't I? |
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/nerdglasses. Seriously though, even with a quick-damage build like an elementalist, you're gonna need three turns at the absolute least to make your first damage roll, because most Mages will use Shielding. If they don't? Well, their total of 5 Hit Points should be disadvantage enough compared to a potential 14. Secondly, they actually have to spend their Mana to prepare themselves for combat, which in turn reduces the amount of total spells they're capable of. Granted, many spells can be cast without use of mana, but certain spell effects require mana - it's a limiting factor, even if not a huge one. Third, we have our roll amounts. This can really be viewed one of two ways, but a mage with a really threatening build likely has to make 2-3 rolls per turn to determine success, and we all know how dice are sometimes. Finally, mages can be interrupted or grappled and generally rendered helpless. Again, they have to spend their Mana to continue spells through interruption, and grappling a Mage who likely has between 1-3 strength is pretty good odds on the side of the fighter with 7 for the purpose of Massive damage, based on what Equi mentioned above.