Is magic mandatory?

Never late, but frankly, onesided...

Mind you the post talks about the state before the ongoing revamp.

Mind you that a magic-user as I refer to is a character whose player had chosen to drop at least 1, maybe even 8 or 9 points into magic with race boni and all. The often referred Battlemage is a spell school, not a class of its own. Basically every magic user can opt to choose self buffs and nukes in their fav mix.



That, sorry, is wrong. Even yet the very today. Or at least it is told with one eye shut and a lot of favourism.

Of course you can, as fighter, at any post just begin to fight, a straight, blank attack, but it needs not 3 posts for the mage.

Evocation spells page: "You cast Acid Bolt. Your first cast of Acid Bolt takes 2 posts to cast but afterwards, for the duration of the scene, further casting of Acid Bolt only requires 1 post."

Means you need 2 posts, 1 prepare, the second means attack roll, for 2 damage (medium weapon). IF you add a third, it is selfbuffs or the viscious addition to the nuke which makes it allow no defense roll, i.e. 2 damage for free, negating basically the medium armor you enforce to the fighter (while the mage has the OPTION), to light armor. The mage has the option for light armor too at the expense of -1 magic - given that first blast was irresistable, you have put yourself practically onto the same hitpoints level of the fighter. You have the OPTION to sacrifice magic for armor as mage, battle mage (which is only a spell school!) or pure mage does not matter. The pure fighter does not have the option to drop armor for a magic trait rising.

Anyways, the mage, pure mage or battle mage spell school, has the option to use armor, he can CHOOSE, at the expense of amor, he can CHOOSE, aside of the magic trait which gives a lot of maneuvers itself, to also raise fighting to 5, 6, or even 7. 30 points for char creation is a lot, you are basically "forced" to become not only pure fighter, also rogue and archer. 30 points means you do not have to choose what you raise, but what fits your char least and you leave aside. And if that should be Magic, you basically do not get all the advantages and options of ones who have (other traits not giving near as many benefits).

In general your entire post fails at the one very assumption that a Magic-User MUST use magic to attack, i.e. nuke or such. He does not have to, he can OPT to go fully mundane fighting and he can OPT to use his magic to bring himself either on par or exceed the NON-magic-user. I.e. by just investing points to Magic, from 1 to 7 or 9, you can CHOOSE to become it all if you like. The one who does not invest into Magic is limited without one single other advantage, they CANNOT choose.

Two chars can vary in as little as that one has fighting 8, magic 0 and reflex 5, and the other fighting 5, magic 8 and reflex 5. All other stats equal. The magic holder can CHOOSE a spell school (e.g. Battle mage with which he can easily raise his Fighting another 3 points, or Elementalist, etc.). No matter the spell school, the mage can opt to use armor up to full plate which means -6 mana. From magic 8 it means he will have 2 mana left, which he can use on e.g. the initial 3 post viscious blast that allows no defense roll, and by that lower any other full plate sporting fighter that does not have armor mastery to beneath himself in HP, AND he could have cast the corpse spell Call to War before to bring his Fighting and Reflexes to each 6, i.e. fighting only 2 points worse, reflexes 1 point better! EVERY MAGE who chose thos 2 spells!

The only option to counter that initial spell for a pure fighter is the knowledge skill HyperAware (which the mage can have too) or to metagame knowing what that mage is actually doing, WHAT exactly he is casting, and then he can try to disrupt that, trying means no automatic succeeding just as the nuke will automatically succeed.

Battle Mages or Esoteric Arrows, Numerian Blades, we do not need to bring up anymore I guess. They do not only get the weaknesses of both "pure", they also get the strengths of both. I have been brawled down by a battle mage, and the only mistake that one made was perhaps wrong spell durations or such in another fight. Dice luck left or right, it needed him brief casting to get his fighting up to my level, he wore heavier armor than me by then and that spell school does not suffer the drawbacks of armor at all. A fighter needs to invest 14 trait points to top that by getting Armor Mastery (as back then 1 out of max 2 styles) at the beginning. A Battle Mage needs to invest 3 trait points into magic to be able to buff his fighting by 3 and can still opt to wear fullplate and opt to and opt to and opt to... you understand what I mean? Options! Even options to be better.


As for things, the pure fighter (non-magic-user) vs. the magic-user can pursue?

Why can't a magic-user NOT use poisons? Not use Materials/Metals/Smithing? I do not find that info on the pages. They can use that too, pursue that route too, just as that they also can become bakers, smiths, merchants, librarians, seamstresses, etc. That is an absolutely invalid and highly biased/onesided/favourizing argument.


Again though. With magic 8 you get 16 spells. You cannot fill that up with only a single spell category (evocation, etc.). A mage that does not choose spells like Call to War, at least one evocation nuke, in an area in which dice based battle conflict can happen is nearly careless or actively wants to be subpar in toe-to-toe conflict (in other words: he wants to be realistic if following most spread fantasy lore).
And they still have the option to choose full plate, they still have the option for all those skills, jobs, poisons, etc. and more! A mage e.g. can well go stealth battle, archery. And of course a magic-user that is not totally careless in battle, when wearing fullplate, will not use spells that allow or require defense rolls in whatever type. Self buffs, initial viscious nukes - and they all get the advantage. At WHAT expense? The minor dice roll result statistics as mentioned earlier in the thread.

But lets again return to the initial mages have blabla options less and drawbacks more. No. You choose one evocation nuke, viscious or not, the first spell goes 2 posts, all succeeding 1 post. Do the Fighting Styles as per website counter that to which they have no access anymore if not battle mage? No. Dual wielding: once per battle, can be parried. Fast Blade gets only useful after months of character progression as it comes to par with Fighting not before Reflexes reach 7. Shield Mastery? You need to raise Resolve at the start likely instead of Reflexes and then are bound to Medium Weapons and using a shield until you get maybe Goliath Grip months later. Small weapons makes from a small weapon a medium weapon - as there are no drawbacks or restrictions to medium weapons other than strength 3 - THREE - it is mostly a skill for show. Precision Strike is a Huntsman skill, no fighting style. Way of the Norris is a joke. Where are the advantages of fighting styles? Only Armor Mastery is an advantage of pure fighters and even that IS now open to some mages: "Any character with Magic rank 2 or higher can NOT gain this skill. Numinous Blades are the exception." - there is no advantage of a non-magic-user over a magic-user unless the magic-user CHOOSES actively or by neglect to be subpar. Not one, none! Including the current changes (which yet surely are not done, I know).

So that leads me to consider your points as quite invalid or biased.


I do not know yet, of course, how that entire adjustment will look in the end, how it will finally be. The current changes already on the page only tell that one who invests 1 point in the magic trait may not use fighting styles unless he is of the battlemage school. In that later case he can really opt to be FULLY as good as any pure fighter or better, with the only disadvantage of maybe not getting the Armor Mastery Skill. Also in all this yet, the magic-users, all of them, unless made totally non-combative in all possible aspects, have the options of being between near as good to better than a pure fighter - on the ground of mundane fighting.

And of course I am grateful that the admins both invest so much effort into all of this as well as that they go in on a posting player whose posts maybe look distressed like mine.


Yet also, I have seen a lot of players on SL battle, meter or dice based, or even pure roleplay based. I have seen elves thinking they should display a strength based fighting style against orcs (while elves classically are rather a technique/agility based race, lean and fast). I have seen mages who thought it would make sense that to go melee against a pure fighter with themselves having absolutely no melee skills, and whine over losing. I have seen people whine when losing to a 3:1 odds against them fight. I summarize that under "bad roleplayer" and am done with it. Such though, and I do not proclaim it is the base for your testing, should never be taken into account. Just as players in battle that do not know all their options - i.e. different "classes" need to be tested against various combinations of their options, including using all to max extend. And one class should never have far more options at their disposals than a fair count of drawbacks in comparison to the other classes. And as I see it, and as you sadly did not manage to convince me of, magic-users still have far more options, incl. for battle, than non-magic-users have in combat.

I am the last to call for a nerf for Magic-Users. I am favoring an enhancement of options for non-magic-users. And if that, to balance it, requires e.g. offensive, defense roll requiring spells to be buffed up, I am ALL IN FOR IT. I love magic-users, if they are my IC friends or enemies (on OOC level of course). I enjoyed my own a lot. I know how it is to play a mage, a full mage, even one of the less direct combative schools like necromancy. Gosh I loved to play that char. I want all mages to shine - but, literally, in another light than pure fighters. I suggest such, and I offer my help, I will work out a sample, meat for thoughts, base of discussions for the admins. If they take it or not, lastly it is their choice, I will go with it, I respect them for their mature posting, for their hard working. I already, after what, 1 week?, love the sim enough to want it to prosper for a long time!

I don't entirely disagree! Mages do require 3 posts to begin a fight with similar combat statistics to a fighter, however. I grant you that a Numinous blade probably doesn't have the same necessity, but when I say Mage I mean a dedicated pure mage class, not a mixture between the two. I didn't clarify that entirely. A 'Battlemage' in my opinion doesn't necessarily mean the spell school - perhaps I should've referred to them as combat mages?

First post for shielding, as their armor must be cast rather than simply worn into battle, and the following two posts to initiate their first damaging attack. You're right in that Fighters don't gain anything when they sacrifice armor, but that I feel is more of a flavor choice, no? I agree in that mages currently have a bit more versatility, but I'd say it's also pretty early on in the game. Fighting Styles and trait-based skills have been released with frequency - I think the Martial/Universal skills split is an excellent step in the right direction to give Fighters something unique to pursue. 

You're correct, they can buff themselves pretty well. They're able to use their magic to enhance their physical capabilities, but again - I'm looking at 'Mage' as a dedicated thing, and I use the most efficient route for them when it comes to dealing damage. Spending extra posts to cast more spells that might be interrupted is inefficient, as it stands. As things are right now, the fewer spells you have to cast as a mage, the better.

You don't need any special skill to tell a mage is casting, it's supposed to be obvious for anyone who happens to be nearby, so anyone has a chance to interrupt. You may not know what they're casting, but you can at least reasonable tell that they're doing something or other.

I could be wrong in the materials/poisons things, but poisons shouldn't apply unless you actually strike an opponent with a poisoned weapon. You can't apply poison to a fireball. Same with materials. They shouldn't increase your rolls because you're not actually using that weapon to attack when you cast a spell. I don't think that makes for an invalid argument at all.

I'll concede the point that as of now, mages have more versatility in terms of choosing combat paths than fighters, but I still think much of that versatility ends up hurting their overall efficiency, except in a few select cases. And again, I think the Martial Skills are an excellent step in the right direction - that list is only going to continue growing, after all. 

As for your final points, I think you'll find that Fighters have continually been enhanced alongside mages since the sim opened up - it's been constantly improving day to day. I do think you have some good points even if I don't entirely agree with them, and I hope to see some of your ideas put into play!

While yes, if you CHOOSE to play a magic user as that classical "silky" who would never put on an armor, who would never touch a sword in favor of his fancy wizard wand or staff, who would by own free will never go toe-to-toe to a warrior (knight) but prefers to send in his devastation from range or from behind his "tank" buddy, who really dumps - technically - not one point into the trait Fighting, you are correct. Then mages are likely even weaker than I think they should be.

But there is still that one word, you saw it: CHOOSE - the mage can CHOOSE to go full flavor fighter at the expense of some of his magic. The mage can CHOOSE to fight with a melee weapon the size of which depends on his strength. Of course he then loses mana and evocation attack rank for his rolls, but he will not even need that necessarily, and no matter how many points you lose, you can still have 1-2 left, and that is 1-2 spells that can be used on buffs or a visciously cast intial strike that cannot be defended or what not. The mage can CHOOSE, the pure fighter can NOT CHOOSE. And apart of what changes will now come live, priorly, when the thread here started, every mage had also access to up to two Fighting Styles with the sole exception of Armor Mastery.

And for the definition, I am talking about and this thread is subjecting "magic users", not pure and played as such "academy magicians". I am talking about and the thread is subjecting the benefit that you get by dumping something between 1 and 7 points plus race appliers or not into the trait Magic, whereas people - all people - who dump 0 points into the trait Magic get no additional maneuvers from their traits:
- If you put 1-7 points into fighting, you used to get no special maneuvers (soon it will at least be that you can "BUY" skills others can't, while the magic-user still gets maneuvers only for his investments in the trait magic), you can fight already, just not as good
- If you put 1-7 points into Shadows... the same. You can sneak already at a Shadows value of 0, just not as good
- If you put 1-7 points into Huntsman... the same. You can shoot already at a Huntsman value of 0, just not as good
...
BUT:
- If you put 1-7 points into Magic, it is different, while you can do all the non-casting hinky-pinky with a value of 0, just not as good, you get 2*points in spells, you get access to Spell Schools that give additional benefits, some even as much as that they lever out the sole remaining benefit of those characters whose players chose the non-magic route for them, pure mundane battle

One the same hand, it is sad enough that you FORCE pure fighters to become full flavored knights in order to have their benefits. You eradicate with that fighting pirate in his linen clothes swinging his sable or rapier, the musqueteer (replace the musquet with a crossbow maybe) who fences like a pro, the hides covered savage who uses his brute strength to break through others' defenses (oooops, that could been my vision of my char a bit, I do not hide that), you block the Aragorn (Strider time), the Gimli and what not non.magic-supported fighting adventurer types.

But that makes the entire topic even more crass! While the magic-user can CHOOSE which route they take today, the non-magic-user is FORCED to wear a certain degree of armor to get intended as must have benefits at all. I personally fought a Battlemage (no drawbacks from armor!), orc, about 11 Hit Points, (7+4 or something along the lines), who told me in IM that the hides skirt I wore should be treated as Light Armor, i.e. +1 Hit Point, and my weapon as large weapon for damage (as I had no shield anyways, nor the skill Shield Mastery). That means I faced a surely beginner-level orcish battlemage who came with the Naturalism pet into the scene, who buffed that pet up while we talked, wore heavy armor without any drawbacks, buffed himself up with the Spell School options (not even the other, open to all magic-users Corpse spells!). I as pure fighter with Light Armor, barbarian hides, a two handed sword, fighting 8 and reflexes 6 or such, faced a battle mage with buffed up fighting likely also 8, reflexes of also 6, yet likely 4-6 mana and spells available, a buffed up pet and near twice as many hitpoints than myself... that is what you can CHOOSE to turn your magic-user into if you have at least 1 point in Magic. You can also CHOOSE something else, for general or a single scene.

Players with characters not having at least 1 poinit in the trait Magic, can not CHOOSE!

Again: Of course I know that a pure fighter, non-magic-user likely will smash any silken clad item enchantress who never dabbles in weapons, has likely no fighting trait as she focuses on Magic, Knowledge and Social Standing or something. But the pure non-magic fighter will be subpar to any other magic-user, at least at the beginning before char progression.

A) You have 30 points to spend at the start, that means you choose what to actually not raise. Maybe a global 20 would be better to shape out distinct classes a bit better
B) As Magic-User you get maneuvers (i.e. spells) by investing points straight into the trait and then you can already choose a spell school free of trait mix requirements. For all other, skills, fightings styles, even the exclusively named Smithing, you need a combination of trait ranks that is partly not possible to reach at the start, respectively, you cannot create a character as you maybe envisioned as two skills or styles are needing so contradicting trait ranks in a height that only the race bonus can let you reach for one trait. And meanwhile, every character who had invested at least 1 point into magic could still CHOOSE the very same

I know there are changes upcoming currently, I wait for them to be fully there - until then my posts still regard the status before the ongoing revamp, when not then I will mention it.




Knowing WHAT they cast can easily become THE crucial factor though. IF they cast an attack nuke or a self-buff IS crucial for the fight, at least from the perspective of a non-magic-user. But every magic-user can well hide what they cast, it is near never mandatory to cast in a way that the other definitely gets to know what exactly is done:
"Incantations. These must be coherently spoken, even if whispered."
"Physical motions. The larger the spell, the greater and more noticeable the motion."
"Staves or wands."
A magic-user needs to hold as little as a wand to cast a nuke, a selfbuff. How but by metagaming can the other, any other, validly know what the hell the magic-user is actually doing? The magic user can recite in whisper words in "ancient language", can whisper literally "humpty dumpty" as spoken formular, can do a motion of holding his own heart and with love in the eyes to prepare his nuke or selfbuff. Any enemy, even a magic-user of the same school can be puzzled by that as the motion per spell is not set in stone. Any magic-user can do what he wants, how he wants, as long as he does something along those ingredient lines. It is the generosity of the player of the magic-user to do it in a way that any enemy can define what's coming. Not even a roll against magic (if with magic 0 it is an unranked roll 1-100) you can find it out!

Alchemy/Poison, both is open to magic-users as well. Even, in regards to equivocation's posts, a magic-user can even do that trick with poison on arrows. It is not bad that they can, the problem is that they can CHOOSE, but the non-magic user can NOT CHOOSE. For every other trait everyone can CHOOSE to do stuff or not, maybe with less rank modifiers for the task, maybe by having the same rank as a possible specialist for whatever reason. Just with magic, you can not CHOOSE if you do not invest points. Magic defines that you can have 2 spells per point, that you have 1 mana per point, that you have a spell school open for you to CHOOSE. With magic 0 you do not have that options, not even at a lesser extend or success chance, you can NOT CHOOSE.


In theory, and surely because my char is a pure non-magic fighter and I was the most vocal here the thread went into a direction of melee, you need to look at that issue for all classic class types:
The archer, specializing in Huntsman, faces magic-users who can pump themselves up to his level or higher, learn the same skills, if they CHOOSE so, while he can not CHOOSE to pump himself up to the level of the magic-user.
The shadow rogue or assassin, specializing in Shadows, faces magic-users who can pump themselves up to his level or higher, learn the same skills, if they CHOOSE so, while he can not CHOOSE to pump himself up to the level of the magic-user.
The hulk, specializing in Strength, faces magic-users who can pump themselves up to his level or higher, learn the same skills, if they CHOOSE so, while he can not CHOOSE to pump himself up to the level of the magic-user.
The politician / intrigue weaver, specializing in Social Standing, faces magic-users who can pump themselves up to his level or higher, learn the same skills, if they CHOOSE so, while he can not CHOOSE to pump himself up to the level of the magic-user.

You get the point? It is the chance to CHOOSE to be alike or better. All that is since brought forth as oh so bad downsides of the magic-users, ALL of that, so far was situational and only applied if they CHOOSE to have this downside. Even rediculous things were brought like "non-magical fighters can become bakers aside their fighting" - a mocking on the one side, and on the other side invalid as argument as magic users can CHOOSE that as well. Nowhere it is written that only fighters can become bakers or seamstresses (Good for the nice magician Emm!). It is written that fighters can go for "Materials (Metals), Poisons, Blacksmithing" - and magic-users, even full flavored silky mages can't? Where is that in the rules? Unless it is in the rules and I missed it, magic-users can still CHOOSE to go for "Materials (Metals), Poisons, Blacksmithing". They can CHOOSE, the non-magic cannot CHOOSE.

As magic-user you can choose to be all that others are and more. (and yes, again, something is coming up to address that, I know)


Look at my own character:

A barbarian, envisioned actually to wear only hides and furs, i.e. max light armor. I considered to actually even play her topless because she IC wants to be as the male "Conans" of her tribe (decided against that for sim rating reasons even though I would still be allowed as per rules).

Fighting: 6 +2 (racial)
Huntsman: 5 +1 (race gift)
Shadows: 5
Strength: 5
Reflexes: 6
Resolve: 3
Magic: 0
Knowledge: 0
Social: 0
Hitpoints: 5

Call of the Warrior: Weapons Master
Huntsman
Un-Magicked

1. Fighting Style: Fast Blade Style
2. The Fox
3. Cat's Grace
4. Stealth Shot
5. Stealth Melee

She has Huntsman and Shadows ONLY because I did not know where else to drop those points, just because the other Traits were even less suiting for how she is envisioned. She is not envisioned to be a good archer, not envisioned to be a good sneaky rogue. She can surely sneak better than a fullplate knight, but that is already in the rules, armor makes sneaking more difficult (aside, having spells in general does not make sneaking more difficult, or anything else ).
The "Trait Based Skills" she has (#2 - #4) she has because I could not choose any other, not because I wanted those to be her style of proceeding. Cat's Grace maybe, the rest I took, and I was told by admin "take them just to have them", as I could not choose any other. She is envisioned as a pure non-magic fighter. She is melee DPS in a way, high damage, low armor, quick and enduring, not as immobilized as a knight in full plate or as "coward" as an adventurer with full chain mail. She swings a heavy blade and fights ferocious and strong, though also faster than maybe the yet stronger men of her tribe.
Alone because she wears no armor, she is already in a crucial disadvantage (which I meanwhile fixed by getting her a fur looking iron armor that qualifies at least as Heavy Armor, a compromise).

The first foe she faced was an orcish battle mage with fighting 6, Reflexes I think even higher than herself, tons of magic and heavy armor. A pet, pet buffed, Spell School self buffed Fighting trait, large weapon (i.e. strength at least 5) and heavy armor without noticeable drawbacks to his casting, orcish rage that not only increased his traits but also lowered mine.
Hello?! That was not a super level 15 maniac! That was just a normal Orcish Battlemage school magic-user that had chosen spells that make sense for his savage nature. If going Barbarian shaman I would likely have chosen the same, just another spellschool.

The battles went quite normal, he even helped me to understand the battle system in IM, how to calculate my char to get the best out of her for the given battles. He defeated me clearly, on my own turf - melee battle - clearly. Because he can CHOOSE to get on par or even better than myself, while I have not one thing to CHOOSE to be on par or better than himself, except for "Armor Mastery", which though I could not choose as I have yet too low strength.

That on a sidenote is also a point: The partly really high trait requirements for skills, though applicable both for magic-users and non-magic-users, to gain single maneuvers that are partly even highly situational, versus the simple dropping of 1 point into magic where you already get 2 maneuvers (spells), which you can CHOOSE from a list to your liking, without further requirements. No other trait, not one, offers similar maneuvers like Magic to CHOOSE from by just investing points into it, not one. Sidenote end.

It is an enormous effort to tinker the traits of a char to get the skills you maybe desire. I understand that is what character progression is for. But seriously, if one wants to increase one's traits one needs to play to work on that for a month and with 8-12 dedicated roleplays? 8 roleplays in which I sneak around (that will barely be with more other players to really interact with due to the nature of the trait). 8 posts to pump my muscles and do strength based chores like chopping wood or carrying stones to advance in strength? Oh dear, if I myself want to get from 5 to 8 to be able to - afterwards with another 2 weeks - learn the Goliath Grip skill, I have to do 24 to 32 roleplays doing situps, chopping wood or carrying the man that fucks my char on her arms instead of vice versa (spoken cheek in tongue)...


Maybe I better just reroll, dump points from SHadows and Huntsman to maximize Magic, become a Barbarian Shamaness who is else fully alike the current fighter anyways.
Magic 5 is easily reached, 10 spells from Naturalism and Corpse, maybe a Heal mixed in if allowed, something, perhaps a nuke, done. The Mage Shield I can cast way before the battle breaks out actually in a scene that seems to be turning into a conflict or risks to at least, an initial viscious nuke, all incorporated into the yet heated blabla emotes, the other cannot know WHAT I actually cast while he still tries to soothe my temper, and BAAAAAM, he has 3 or 4 hitpoints less, Heavy Armor benefit gone, then I go off at him with a heavy sword, light armor over his and surely the same skills as he has and is used/willing to use.

But no, I will wait for the annouced changes to be complete, then check and adjust. There is no venom in me against magic-users, just sadness that I can shine in nothing IC next to them if they... CHOOSE so. There is nothing I can... CHOOSE to be better than them, to shine aside them once in a while too.

thank you! I am sure that suggestions are welcome from all sides. I myself already sent in 2 loads by now (poor admins, and I type so longwinded!!)

Reachable like as "nethya.resident"?