Cyn
Denizen
Existence questionable.
98 posts
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Post by Cyn on Aug 2, 2015 8:48:30 GMT -8
Oh yes, of course! I should've specified - I think their stat spread is perfect as it is. But perhaps a little looser definition on when they can take aggressive action (such as giving out a beating at the request of their noble) might be advantageous. Perhaps restrict the player from entering the fight if their guard is the aggressor?
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Abaddon
Denizen
Fight me IRL, I'm ripped
21 posts
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Post by Abaddon on Aug 2, 2015 10:50:37 GMT -8
Right, Cyn. We aren't asking that people's roleplay is forced. We're asking that the stat does something. Before I posted I had not seen the Social Standing trait skills. That is a huuuge step in the right direction.
But that's the whole thing. We don't want to force people's roleplay, we just want it to be a consideration. The intimidation factor before the skills wasn't quite there. It still isn't in some cases, like you mentioned: Buisness owners don't necessarily need to contact anyone with high Social Standing to import anything, and they don't necessarily go through the proper channels either. Its nothing mechanically that needs to change, but it's something that needs to be clarified with players. It just helps the rp along.
I hate to think it, but requiring rp logs from business owners to represent that they are getting stock imported and taken care of? This generates interesting roleplay for all players involved in the business, too, and a sense of urgency... Or it could just create a monthly slog for business owners that dislike that sort of roleplay. HOWEVER, this would definitely step up the overall importance, connectedness, and respect of players with higher social standing. Being central to the economy better represents the position of nobility without forcing players to respect it.
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23 posts
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Post by Sergeant Vincent Keene on Aug 2, 2015 13:03:44 GMT -8
I do have to agree with Cyn, as some one with SS 5, I attribute it to my birthright, as per my background. Just because you're some fancy noble from another land, doesn't mean you're a fancy noble of Valesk, There are no laws protecting nobility of other land. Just protecting the people of the city. So a Commoner mouthing off to some one who is of such nobility and stature, by IC laws becasue thats what we should be going by, isnt illegal.
Further, if you wanted to do dealing and wheeling like you've proposed, do it, find the shady people, ruin their lives by spreading gossip and rumor, To me, in truth, SS isnt just how powerful you are or how socially high you are on the totem pole, its also a very big CHARISMA skill. Diplomacy, a high SS ranking should be able to use it for that, Intimidation, maybe intimidation is a shos of strength, or well placed words and threats. Bluffing! Socially you could bluff.. thats how I see SS.
An to quote from the description of SS on the webpage "Having high social standing helps with the acquiring of goods and the ability to influence, coerce, charm or convince." So go out there, make people roll against your convincingly good words, and if they beat you, tomorrow is another day.
-slinks away-
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Post by Tief on Aug 3, 2015 9:41:24 GMT -8
I admit. I keep a list. I keep a list where I classify folks into three categories. Now I'll describe the categories and not name them because except for the "You Get A Cookie" category they may not be taken well: A) Folks who react to Tief's racial traits. B) Folks who have a legitimate reason for accepting Tief's racial traits. C) Folks who completely ignore Tief's racial traits. The good news is that here, on Valesk, there are more folks who legitimately fall into categories A and B than in any other fantasy sim I've dropped Tief into. The bad news is that category C still is about 75% of the player base. Now, of course, that folks know this, all bets are off as folks now are aware that there's a A and b and I am willing to lay good odds that B is going to find a whole lot of rationalization. The interesting thing is that I as a player am very cognizant of Tief's social status, I purposefully push the envelope banking that the roleplay that should result will be pretty cool. There is something else that needs to be pointed out. People have been tossing about the terms peasant and nobility a whole lot. If you read the trait it specifically eschews this. High social standing does not come with a noble title - thus you can have a well respected peasant or a slimy noble. Then there is the difference between Social Standing and self image. They are and should be absolutely unrelated. Last there is that good old spectre of consequences of one's actions. And in social standing, that can be insidious and both counter intuitive. Roleplay can wreak absolute havoc with this trait. So I am going to give an in game example. Tief's first meeting with the Den Mother. It is a great example. She is a Have versus a Have Not, dresses high class and makes with Noble Airs. And yet through her roleploy she managed to raise some very obvious red flags and made Tief very glad she could politely say "Sorry I already have a job". So yes, Den Mother is a powerful person whose social position needs to be respected, but her own in-game actions plummeted her - in the Tiefling's point of view - to a social status less than 0. So what to do now? Does Den Mother get a pass and must be kowtowed to with true respect because of a number ... or does she simply have a social position that means you got to treat her one way even though your character believes she doesn't deserve it. Which is interesting in both directions. What do you do with a low social class person in a position that demands respect? Personally, for me, I look at things like this as roleplay gold. Numbers driven folks might not  Let's go back to something Abbadon said - and Abbadon is exactly right. In a fantasy sim there must be a hidden economy - and that is necessitated by the player base and SL tier size. Ha! I bet you didn't think tier size played into this! Simply put, there is no fantasy sim in SL that has enough area devoted to agriculture to support its non-farmer player population. So unless you want to join Denis in the mud, you need to accept a certain level of artificial prosperity and with it the accompanying premise that in general terms there is also a hidden section of the population - the majority actually - who have a complete social hierarchy below those included in the social standing trait. Even as a port of call (some magical port that everyone else uses as a trading hub) or if Valesk had some Important Product that Everyone Else in the World Needed, that would still presume a legitimate economy robust enough to support its player population and a class of people to accomplish this. This also touches something that has always bothered me. Social status is the tip of the ice berg - that is the use use of a trait or an alignment or other game mechanism as a shield to prevent repercussions against things your character does. So let me put my hyperbolic sacrcasm hat on (for those of you who haven't seen me go off on a roll before) and look at this phenomenom. High, I'm Miss Queen Social Status! I've just ruined your life! but who cares, tomorrow you must treat me like the wonderful person I am ... ... because I have a high social status. Sure, I'll steal from the tavern! haha! It's in my nature because I'm an evil assassin! Wait ... whats this about not being welcome in the tavern any more? Are you insane, you are preventing me from being evil! Or my favorite. Hihi! I'm your local wuffie. Yes, last night I rampaged through the town and ate all the marmosets. but that wasn't me! That was the full moon! See, I wasn't in control, not my fault, so you got to treat me like I'm a real cool dude, because, like, it wasn't in my control and all, so it's not my fault. It shouldn't matter what your alignment, trait or particular racial characteristics are. They are many things, but they are not an excuse for behaving badly. If you have your character do bad and reprehensible things ... you should expect your character to be considered a bad and reprehensible person. Regardless of their social standing. |
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6 posts
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Post by Knife on Aug 3, 2015 20:29:22 GMT -8
I admit, I've agreed with much of what I've read in this thread and its made me really look at where my own feelings fall in regards to how SS should be treated. I see why people fall on both sides of the fence. Those who have invested major points in SS want it to represent something meaningful and then there are those who want freedom to act and *think* however they please, regardless of a person's SS.
So let me share how I've been thinking of SS. I went back to re-read the explanation of it on the traits page to make sure it was still in synch with what is written there. I view SS as one of the major stats that govern different types of a character's power. You have fighting, which is probably the most clearly defined expression of strength in the game. Then there is Magic which is a close second. The reason I say it isn't as clearly defined is that an imaginitive mage can wreak all kinds of unexpected woe on someone. And finally there is Social Standing. This one is the least well defined, but possibly the most powerful. I will explain.
I never read a person's SS score to be their ability to make me think one way or another about them. That is left solely in the realm of their actions and their RP. I also never read it as an ability to directly coerce another player into doing something via a contest of dice rolls. While I've read Bella's thoughtful comments on comparing SS ability to somethign akin to winning or losing a magic dice roll, I respectfully disagree. Magic is its own wild beast that defies the realm of physics and free will and to make it work, we agree to suspend disbelief. SS is not Magic with a capital M, its magic of a different sort. (Yes finally, I'm getting to the point.) SS in my mind is akin to having limited Storyweaver powers. The higher the SS score, the more leeway you might have to wield a circumstantial kind of influence. This was lightly touched upon by having NPC guards around doing a person's bidding. But I think its far more powerful than that. Its being able to say to a shopkeeper, "Do this for me or I will buy the lease on this building and have it burned to the ground." Or in the case of someone who owns the building they are in, "Do this for me or I will make sure you never make another copper. I will open a similar shop, undercut you and purchase ever resource you need at triple the price from every one of your suppliers." Notice this is using wealth as a weapon, making it the opposite of a meaningless currency. This is the power of being connected. Its only limited by your own imagination and creativity. Yes, you probably will have to check with admins for the things you might come up with, but if its a direct application of wealth as influence, I suspect it would fly.
Lets take the Den Mother as an example and my own character in contrast. I have a SS score of 0, which in my mind means I have no connections or resources beyond my personal friends to exert any kind of pressure or influence on anyone in the town. I am a wood elf from a far away villiage. I left them behind for my own reasons, but now I know very few people in the distant lands I find myself in. Hence, I have no SS. And that means to me that I can't call upon any NPC connections at all to get something done. When I eventually meet the Den Mother, likely I'm not going to know who she is by her reputation. That will change the longer I am in Valesk. But for right now, all I'd have to go on are the subtle things.. how she dresses, how she acts, who listens to her and who defers to her.. (all NPCs, by the way) And getting a strong enough dose of that would scare the hell out of me. I'd likely avoid people with that much power, similar to strong mages.
But lets say the Den Mother wanted to influence me directly. She could do it the way its always been done. Find out what I want and offer it to me. Or find out what I value and threaten it. People with high SS are in a unique position to exploit this. "Do you like working for ...? It would be a shame if you lost that job." "Do you feel safe in your home? Should you?" "I see you have some friends in town. It would be a shame if something were to happen to them." Whether a character is evil or good-minded might choose which tactic they chose.. but each holds incredible power to make real differences in peoples lives. Having said all that, I would never, ever feel okay with a roll that dictated how I must think of someone.
So lets not take SS as a literal dice roll of influence or coercian and instead use it as a guiding rank of how much personal influence one can bring to bear to coerce. To me its very similar to a strength stat guiding what size weapons you can fight with.
I also think that Tief and Abaddon are right.. there absolutely is a hidden economy that all players participate in and thats called reputation. People with rise or fall with how they RP and what they do with what is given them. This is the part about getting your friends to help you versus relying on your pre-established NPC safety net. And no matter how likeable your character is supposed to be.. (charm), real people aren't going to actually like you based on a number.
Anyway, thats where my thinking is on it.
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Post by Sheonna (Chione) on Aug 4, 2015 1:55:50 GMT -8
I see what you're saying, Knife - at least I hope I'm understanding. To me, SS was more like a bluff/manipulation/intimidation check if anything, not just social status, so I think we're thinkin' alike on this.
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3,197 posts
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Post by Lιттle Ƭree (Cedar Ashland) on Aug 4, 2015 2:50:18 GMT -8
Those examples given by knife, where the coercion given by social sway are the instances in which I suggest using the dice. Just like with combat, if you have reason to trust your opponents reactions, you don't have to roll. But if they are going to ignore everything you do and treat your actions as spurious and things they can easily disregard.... Then roll. I still fail to see why the roll doesn't suit.
As for businesses, let's not bring them into this right now because, a) we have said on various fronts to people already that an economy layout is being worked on for them, and b) I am not aware of any business having acquired what are generally inaccessible goods yet in RP.
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9,653 posts
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Post by Cailean on Aug 4, 2015 5:52:36 GMT -8
Just to ramble on a little more, and I think everyone's been bringing up excellent points, one of the issues with social standing as a stat is not only that its flex and power is limited, but also that it's a subjective stat. Strength is more objective and can easily be measured as a stat, if you want -- can x strength lift y weight?
How do you measure influence? How do you empower players who have high social standing outside of skills? It's almost like a seduction, beauty, charm or charisma stat; if anyone had 10s in those, I might not necessarily treat them as if they're seductive, beautiful, charming or charismatic.
Now I'll be honest, we've been watching this thread and so far, we've gotten that we should try to reinforce the idea of SS through lore and ooc-classes. That was written out awhile ago. Bella suggested rolling, which may work in some circumstances, may not work in others as people have stated.
Are there any more suggestions?
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40 posts
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Post by Eden on Aug 4, 2015 9:05:41 GMT -8
Intimidation: trait skill, allowing high social trait to verbally threaten another. Success may lower trait ranks of the target for the duration of the scene as they fear the results of their actions in opposition.
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40 posts
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Post by Eden on Aug 4, 2015 9:07:18 GMT -8
Rally: trait skill allowing the social trait user to inspire their allies by increasing their trait ranks for the scene.
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40 posts
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Post by Eden on Aug 4, 2015 9:13:03 GMT -8
Recruits: trait skill allowing the social trait to recruit a weak npc to their defense.
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40 posts
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Post by Eden on Aug 4, 2015 9:28:47 GMT -8
With abilities to enforce the trait I think people would be much more likely to respect social status. People respect the guard with a sword because the sword and other guards are their "social status"in this instance.
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Post by Tief on Aug 4, 2015 9:44:51 GMT -8
On one hand I really like Eden's suggestions, because the mechanism provides for a measurable response that still allows the subjective (roleplayed) character-versus-character views to be valid.
So I think that manner of mechanism is a great start.
On the other hand, that mechanism has to be managed carefully, because it could very easily become The Valesk Super Power. For example, as written, Intimidation might become the first thing rolled in any conflict, from sword fighting to grocery price haggling!
This marmoset costs 25 crown? I shall pay no more than 15! Tremble Before My Glower!
Of course the second thing everyone do would be Rally. First my Glower of Power! Now I shall Raise Myself Above you because I can Say Raise Myself Stuff!
Yes, I am being somewhat flippant. But it is a serious concern; it even has the potential of making certain race/profession combinations untenable. Folks have enough trouble dealing with super fast demons (Hi Abbadon! No hard feelings!) than now having to deal with super fast intimidating demons (To which, at least, Tief might say 'Intimidated by you? Bah. You should see when me Ma gets angry!')
Perhaps one way around this might be letting the victim chose the trait to resist with, based on the conditions. For example, A Skinny Noble trying to use intimidation to keep a 3 ton Orc who has had it up to his tusks with Skinny Nobles from clobbering him might find it a bit ... difficult. Sure he has intimidating social power, but the Orc is quite comfortable with his skill at bashing ... so its SS versus Fighting.
It could also be argued that winning an Intimidation roll could be detrimental. Instead of just pounding the Noble into the dirt, the Orc might now be trying to kill him, because letting Skinny live might have consequences ... I'd say Orc might then deserve a +1 for desperation ...
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202 posts
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Post by alecksin on Aug 4, 2015 10:03:04 GMT -8
I think this thread derailed from the original discussion, by I'll reply to tief because here is really the best place I do so while we all discuss.
While the idea is awesome, and I should totally only pay 15 for my marmoset, I think letting people choose any trait to roll against SS once again destroys the integrity of the stat as it's own standing power. In a real world, it can make sense. In a place where we need to respect the fact that allocated points are allocated points, we need to ensure that no other trait becomes a scapegoat for another unless the traits are closely tied, IE resolve vs mind magics, fighting vs reflexes.
Resolve vs SS, on another hand, would be a valid option for rolls, as it does take willpower to resist the social influence of a popular or well-connected figure.
Personally, I haven't had the need to roll SS so far, but yeah, I see the importance of having the system in place, hence why I submitted my SS trait skill ideas. Luckily for me my guy is silver-tongued and likeable enough that people appreciate him without the rolls. Not every character is likeable, however.
I don't know if we should stuff up on any more skills for now, though. It isn't the main priority. I think that this topic derailed from class differentiation to the SS trait, even though we pretty much all agreed ooc classes and guides would be a great help.
So yeah, maybe we should move the coming concerns to a dedicated, on topic thread? (OCD Kicks in)
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40 posts
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Post by Eden on Aug 4, 2015 10:04:23 GMT -8
A rally could be limited to affecting only allies, not the user.
Intimidation could have a backfire. -2/+2 penalizing the user when they fail intimidation.
Recruits could have a backfire also.
Making them all useful but also a risk to balance their use. Imo a large number of things need balance.
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