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Post by Tief on Aug 4, 2015 10:41:24 GMT -8
looks to Alecksin and wavels! Ain't no subject so scary it can't be debated!
I had thought about resolve, and then got ambushed by marmosets. They want to be free, not just reasonably inexpensive. The issue, I believe, is that of all the traits - and I believe Caelean noted this - is that it is the most subjective. The reason I suggested choosing the trait was realizing with a subjective stat the response stat gets just as subjective. Big Orc versus Skinny Noble facing each other with swords, SS versus Fighting makes sense. Big Orc versus Skinny Noble playing The What have I Got In My Pocket game, that might mean Knowledge. Which is fine until you discover the Orc is a university graduate!
The problem is watching things spiral out of control. Perhaps there are situations where Intimidation simply can't be used - because the problem is that a Skill THAT powerful ... will get used. Every bloody time.
Personally I agree with you. Maybe we should get into an insult fight. Tief is so tired f being called a demon-born evil thing or just being sworn at. Come on folks, she demands a higher class of insults!
And I would not say derailed ... I would say we've followed this track about as far as it can go at this point. It's a good track and an important one.
The biggest part of the problem is, I think, a human one.
And I think .. that Eden gave us exactly what the problem is. So let's cut to the chase:
The issue is fear versus respect.
And here's the problem.
Fear is one of the worst motivators in the world. Sure it'll garner a reaction, but as with any rat cornered in a corner ... the reaction can be just about anything. You can assume the person will be cowed, but how many stories have been built around folks going all unreasonable over something they fear?
Supposedly SS is supposed to bring respect. That's the perfect world. So how do you build it into a game?
And here's the kicker. As opposed to any other trait in the game, how you carry it off is intrinsic in it's believably. because of all the qualities in a given culture, true respect isn't something given or bestowed like the ability to poke someone with a sword or to cast a magic spell.
It has to be earned.
Which means, when the sun sets and you look back over the day's play, you end up saying ... did this character earn the respect they supposedly deserve.
That's right.
SS is the only trait that is intrinsically founded on one's ability to roleplay.
Which is daunting. Anyone can say I want to play a fighter and poke some one. From that point of view Tief is a real easy character to play.
To say 'I want to RP a Noble' is also a very valid request. Why not, it is what roleplaying is - to take on a roll that we cannot in the real world. It's what we do.
The difficult part is that some characters are harder than others.
It's asking the right question.
Not 'Can I play a Noble' but 'Can I play a Noble WELL'.
It's a right tough question.
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Post by alecksin on Aug 4, 2015 11:00:41 GMT -8
I was actually just thinking this, Tief! An excellent point! I was in my car and contemplating the true meaning of such a trait, and I came to a VERY interesting conclusion.... And yes, I contemplate these things like I do the meaning of life, because I need to get one. (Orc University Graduates are the leading percentage of successful students in North America)
I have not been here really as much during beta, I started near the end of it - But it was not my SS trait and its level that got me the friends, deals, and cool respect I have got so far. I am sure some people took it into account, and I certainly work for it so that I can have a NUMBER that represents my status IC, but all in all it was how my character acted, treated others, and presented himself that earned a lot of what he has going for him right now, which is a lovely growth of people that actually like him, treat him reasonably well, and don't get into his grill.
Really, the trait is extremely dependent on your RP. No one wants someone to jump into the Sim with a character with 8-10 SS and have them expect everyone is willing to flop around on the ground for them. Yes, back in the good ol' day, if a noble walked by you weren't likely to treat them like the average bloke, but if that noble was in your life a lot more, interacting with you, and perhaps in a positive and constructive way, you would be more likely to say "Wow, I like this guy, I am going to help him out and defend his name when the time comes, cause really he isn't that bad, and it will probably benefit me too!"
Now, of course I still hold my view on how the idea should be defended, but all in all I really do think everyone has a lot of cool points here.
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Post by Eden on Aug 4, 2015 13:37:47 GMT -8
If you dilute the value of taking the social trait down to the point of saying it is entirely a "roleplay" issue then you're telling those who took the points in the trait that they do not matter. Personally having seen the flaw in social and knowledge traits I decided to have both as zero. Since things were already depreciated greatly. Saying that someone running around the sim with 8-10 SS will be an issue is really no different, or it SHOULD be no different than my character with 9 reflex running about saying "can't catch me" or a fighter punching everyone they meet in the face with their 8+ fighting, A vampire grappling everyone with their 8+ strength to bite them with pleasure trip and sucking them dry. If anything, the improvement of social and adding social trait skills would decrease the instances of these things taking place because less people would be 0 knowledge & social, having dedicated a few points into each for balance and survivability their other traits could not be so disruptively high. If in fact they are disruptive. My point being a high social skill for those into that style of play should not be any more or less beneficial than a high fighting, high strength or other trait. Why should I be allowed to start as a vampire with 9 reflex, 7 strength 6 fighting who plays mostly at "night" but another player be discouraged from playing a wealthy merchant who supplies people with under the table deals in exchange for "favor" that grants them a certain leverage socially? If we are to say social has no value as a point based trait then it should not exist, correct? Everything boils down to fantastic roleplay from fantastic players, but in all honesty it does not always happen that way either by mistake or choice. Giving social status proper weight in my opinion also discourage the ignorance to it's existence greatly.  |
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Post by Tief on Aug 4, 2015 15:06:08 GMT -8
You know, it took me half an hour to catch Tief and lock her back in the character closet. Which is good because she and Tala had an absolutely hilarious conversation on Social Trait absolutely backfiring. It's for the best, happily she's not my sneaky character and doesn't know how to pick the lockset. You see, she wanted to ask you what color is Cailean's white horse. I told her she didn't even know if Cailean had a horse ...
If you think diluting the social trait to simply roleplaying, then I just might have to borrow Tief's shield because I don't think any of us want to get into the "role-playing" versus "roll-playing" argument. I already have a hard hat from work. that's not what Alecksin (I think) and I are talking about at all.
It's that the Social trait is a unique critter. Of all the traits its the one least quantifiable.
It's also the only one where one's roleplay can make or break it.
Excuse me - KUSA, DON'T YOU DARE LET TIEF OUT!
Take fighting. It's fairly straight forward. And you know, you can get into a combat and go "I charge and swing my sword at this marmoset." And guess what. That pretty much works. It's straight forward, simple, and believable. I can also go "Even though the marmoset has surprised me, my hand slips forward, past the doppelsoldner's crossguard just below the triangular stops. Gauntleted hand wrapped around the unsharpened portion of the blade, I can now offer the dastardly critter this sword's infamous two handed thrust, attempting to skewer the beast in close quarters. Die, marmoset! Die!"
Pretty much works, too - just a little more verbose.
Now where is Skinny. Oh here he is. let's see.
"Now lissen here orc! You sure like that sword of yours, don't yah. Well I own the smithy that made it. I also own the mine where the iron ore comes from. Speaking of which, your father works in those mines, doesn't he - earning enough every day to feed your Mum, Aunt Ziggy, Uncle Krumf and the Arkle quintuplets. Know what? You better really like that sword. Cause it'll be the last one you own. I'll put your family out of work, shut the mine down, your village will turn to dust - and the smith will be the first to go broke with no iron, he'll tell all the other smiths and now NO ONE will make you anything because you are bad news! So think quickly, Orc. Pop Quiz. Are you going to sell me that marmoset for 15 gold or not?"
That works.
"I look at you intimidatingly and tell you to sell me that marmoset cheap.
That doesn't quite work.
Sure you can rollplay the numbers, get your cheap marmoset.
The point is that the Social trait is one of the few that can really fall into this trap, making or breaking the scene.
In a previous Sim, there was a leader. Call it Social Trait 10. But you know, you never had to ask. After a few sessions with this player you had met a character that cared about you, understood the responsibilities of being noble, worked bloody hard at it - so there was no question. You'd follow them anywhere and gladly stand between them and trouble.
That person had to leave. Then there was the next leader. Social trait of 10. But they were much more lackadaisical, much less involved; they were the title. Much less satisfying. It was very hard to become enthusiastic .. because it was just a trait you were playing with.
So how do you implement something like this in a gaming environment? That's the question.
And as we noted, it's a TOUGH question.
Simply layering on a set of skills to make someone fear dealing with high SS traits isn't the answer. It's going to require a much smarter answer.
*thinks*
And suddenly shuts her mouth.
there is an interesting solution ... I think I need to corner Storyteller, a Mentor and an Admin ...
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Post by Eden on Aug 4, 2015 15:49:40 GMT -8
I believe saying the solution is to make others fear social standing is entirely out of context. For those with social standing as a character focus (not me) I would assume it is less about everyone fearing them and more about people giving them any credit at all for having taken the points in the trait when it comes to roleplay.
In the case of "I charge and swing my sword at this marmoset." I honestly believe most would be disappointed in seeing that as a post, and it would not have really been any more well received than ""I look at you intimidatingly and tell you to sell me that marmoset cheap." .
Back to social standing, I would assume maybe at this point it would be best to quantify it like gold. Everyone starts with nothing, and you build it up. So that there is no waste in spending trait points on a trait not given equal attention.
I respectfully disagree that social status is the only trait that someone's roleplay can make or break it's application. /me reaches for <name>, /me tries to duck the arrow, /me throws a dagger at <name>, /me starts to cast <spell> at <name>, /me looks for animal tracks, /me attempts to read the writing, /me tries to resist the poison, /me tries to sneak, are all sub par examples of roleplay using traits as a sample, and for many may be make or break instances.
I did not get the feeling terrible roleplay was the issue as much as social standing having no legs to stand on, no rules to support it's use, or defined applications.
One small step may be to make a simple association with each trait and it's rank. This would limit the need for more skills and give others an idea of what x number trait really means to them.
Strength
0 - Feeble, an infant, unable to move on their own.
1 - Weakling, a child or the elderly.
3 - Average, the typical human villager.
4 - Above average, sturdy and capable.
5 - Athletic, Chopping wood before I work helps me stretch.
6 - Imposing, I'm the strongest you'll meet around here.
7 - Remarkable, Shook marmoset out of a tree.
8 - Amazing, I'll hold the wagon, you put the wheel back on.
9 - Witchcraft!, You broke a lock with your bare hands?!
10- Impossible, The bricks had to be loose, not even a minotaur could have walked through a wall like that.
As for diluting the trait, I meant that if it were to be entirely roleplay determined (which would be fine, great even perhaps) then the trait and dedication of points to it should be removed as something people place points into. I am saying that if the trait of social standing is to stay, they should get something for the dedication of points to it.
I personally am having difficulty with not giving equal treatment to someone who has dedicated their play style and points to a trait. If the trait exists, why not give them the same respect as another trait gets?
Ideas?
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Post by Tief on Aug 4, 2015 17:38:47 GMT -8
hah! I got more folks to pick on marmosets!
I WIN!
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Post by alyboobs on Aug 5, 2015 11:08:42 GMT -8
Thanks for your suggestions everyone.
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